Two good schools admissions, two financial concerns: Can't decide which school.

College Search & Lists
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<p>Graduation rates are related to the selectivity of the school; CWRU is a more selective school than MUST. However, for the same student, the variation in chance of on-time graduation is likely much lower across different schools.</p>

<p>But also note that not-highly-selective engineering-focused schools like MUST have low overall graduation rates, because students leaving engineering often leave the school entirely because the offerings in other subjects are inadequate to major in those subjects.</p>

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<p>@LanaHere‌ - Let me explain further what I mean by how the employment data is reported. In the case of CWRU, they say that 86% get offers and 38% go on to grad school. Obviously since that adds up to more than 100%, they mean 86% of the students not going to grad school.</p>

<p>S&T, on the other hand, has those numbers as 62% and 20% respectively. There is no way to know if they mean 62% of the entire graduating class, including that 20%. If so, then when you subtract that 20% you get 62 out of 80 which is 77.5%. That’s at least closer to the 86%. Now I think that would be silly of S&T to do that, but I have no idea. This stat is not part of the Common Data Set, which is where most of the other data comes from, so again I just don’t know where they get it and how each school calculates it.</p>

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<p>@ucbalumnus‌ - That’s certainly true, but 27%? After all, the 6 year rate is about 65%. So assuming that 35% drop out or transfer, that still means that only about 40% of those that stay are finishing in 4 years. That is a low number unless there is another reason for it. There are about an equal number that graduate in 5 years as in 4 (more, actually) which is one reason I am thinking there is an internship stint involved for many of the students.</p>

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<p>Given how few colleges and universities make public their post-graduation survey data (if they even do useful post-graduation surveys), it would not be surprising if those percentages on collegedata.com are collected differently so that they are not comparable.</p>

<p>Some post-graduation survey results – note the different methods of surveying and reporting that make it risky to compare numbers across schools. <a href=“University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums”>University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums;

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<p>Unfortunately the Mo S&T career service doesn’t list the percent responding to the survey (it seems likely that unemployed students would be less likely to respond to a survey than fully employed ones), but from the data it does publish approximately 80% of students plan on starting a job upon graduation.
<a href=“http://erp.mst.edu/media/research/erp/documents/demo/COER2013.swf”>http://erp.mst.edu/media/research/erp/documents/demo/COER2013.swf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I see this claim around here, but with nothing to back it up. Why would unemployed graduates be less prone to responding to the survey? Indeed, employed graduates may be harder to contact for survey purposes, since they are less likely to be at a location known to the school due to having to move to live near the job location (as opposed to going back at their parents’ place after graduating with no job).</p>

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<p>The survey was taken upon graduation. I don’t think it’s particularly hard to send an email to the group of graduating students asking them to fill out a survey. Just seems logical that those with a full time job would be more enthusiastic about telling the school they’ve found a job versus those that are still looking. </p>

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<p>It is not obvious to me. Indeed, in other contexts, people who are angry about something (e.g. customer service, product quality) are more likely to tell other people than people who are pleased about it. So, if anything, the angry unemployed graduates may be more prone to responding.</p>

<p>Also, some schools do their surveys six months or a year after graduation, when getting graduates to respond (or finding them in the first place) may be more difficult.</p>

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<p>Let’s start another thread about employment data in general if that is of interest. I think for the case at hand, it probably isn’t crucial in making a decision.</p>

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<p>You guys can stay here and talk about employment data, the weather on campus, the food or my original post. I don’t mind at all. </p>

<p>Everyone is welcomed.</p>

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<p>$50k of debt is ridiculous.</p>

<p>$50k of debt as a premed is outright crazy.</p>

<p>Do the math. figure out how much that debt would GROW while in college and in med school…while also accumulating $200k+ of med school debt.</p>

<p>Case is not worth it at all.</p>

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<p><<<
Chance D- Case Western RD 2018. D’s stat:
ACT: 25
GPA: 4.0
AP Chem, AP Bio, AP Calculus AB, AP Language and Comp.
Advanced and Honors: Physics, Anatomy and Physiology, Spanish III, English Literature.
<<<<<</p>

<p>I have to be honest with you…her ACT doesn’t bode well for engineering or premed. Case eng’g would likely be over her head. S&T would also be a challenge. The ACT is a predictor for the MCAT.</p>

<p>do not pay attention to overall school rankings. S&T’s lower ranking is likely due to the fact that its non-STEM majors probably aren’t as strong…since Mizzou would likely be stronger in those softer majors. The science and engg classes at A&T will be difficult.</p>

<p>Your D cannot borrow $12k per year. (and as tuition rises, the loans will rise as well). Are you willing and able to co-sign?</p>

<p>Juillet makes a good point that many premeds drop out, but the truth is so do many engineering students…the major change is probably similar to premeds.</p>

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<p>The ACT is a remarkably poor predictor of freshman year grades once other factors are eliminated. What I’d be more interested in is how she scored on AP Chem and AP Calculus. Those scores will be far more indicative of her potential success than whatever she got on the ACT. </p>

<p>Are you a current resident of Missouri? If not, know that the state makes it quite easy to establish residency there. Here are the details from Mizzou’s website <a href=“http://admissions.missouri.edu/costs-and-aid/residency-requirements/documents-and-steps.php”>http://admissions.missouri.edu/costs-and-aid/residency-requirements/documents-and-steps.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@mom2collegekids. </p>

<p>You wrote: " I have to be honest with you…her ACT doesn’t bode well for engineering or premed. Case eng’g would likely be over her head. S&T would also be a challenge."</p>

<hr>

<p>What you copied and pasted there is only partial of my D’s profile. Her story in an extraordinary one.</p>

<p>As previously mentioned, D was a paid Medical Research Lab Assistant.
I also didn’t mention that during D’s time in the Research lab, she aided MTSP (PhD students), by finishing parts of their research for them. </p>

<p>There’s a lot that doesn’t make sense in many of my posts because I left out a lot of information. Things like, D does well in the classroom and understand big concepts in AP Biology, Advanced Physics, AP Calculus, AP Chemistry etc. but lacking in the fundamentals. Reason being, D spent 10 years in an underprivileged school district. </p>

<p>D will graduate next month. As of this semester (after her 3rd quater) her GPA is a 4.75, but given how she always started out a class with “D’s” in the 1st quarter because she wasn’t taught properly at her former school, she will graduate with an accumulative 4.15 GPA. I think she did pretty good.</p>

<p>I really appreciate your honesty because I would rather you tell me how it is, then try to sugar coat things. I think you are right in one aspect, my D’s ACT score is low. She’s a very slow thinker. Everything about her is slow. She walks slowly, shop slowly, speaks slowly, and takes forever to study. Every night, she would stay up pass 11pm to study. </p>

<p>But she does study and that’s why she will graduate Summa Cum Laude and will stand on stage alongside her classmates who have had 12 years of education from an excellent school district.</p>

<p>If D is a slow thinker, low ACT score etc…, what makes me think she will do well in Engineering. Here is why:</p>

<p>When D was in the 8th grade, she spent 2 weekends in a Civil Engineering program sponsored by a State University. The University Civil Engineering Department Chair ran that program. </p>

<p>My D took home all top prizes, beating out High School juniors and seniors.
Last year, D won an in school science contest. </p>

<p>There are more interesting details to D’s profile and thank God, CWRU (her reach school) recognizes that. Everyone thinks their child is especial and they should.</p>

<p>D is special too, and not because she is my child. Without revealing too much, D was special at birth, if you catch my drift.</p>

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<p>thank you for sharing more info. :)</p>

<p>I still think that the peers in her major (and premed) at Case will be stronger students and they will grab the A’s and her GPA will be compromised. </p>

<p>Information comes at you fast and hard in engineering and it comes at you like a fire hose in med school. </p>

<p>Success in engineering isn’t just about study skills, it’s about having an eng’g mind…a problem-solver, being able to think outside the box, taking pieces of info and processing to come up with a conclusion/solution, etc.</p>

<p>I still think her best chance for success in eng’g or premed will be at S&T. </p>

<p>Have you done the math to determine how big that $50k of debt will grow after undergrad, med school, and residency…along with the huge med school debt? Are you willing to cosign the amounts that exceed fed loans?</p>

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<p>@mom2collegekids‌

  1. “I still think that the peers in her major (and premed) at Case will be stronger students and they will grab the A’s and her GPA will be compromised.”</p>

<p>We talked about that too. What she missed out (the fundamentals), she will learn by taking lower course #s during her first year, and/or by tutoring, if needed. And if it takes 5 yrs to graduate, or D will have to take summer classes to stay on schedule, so be it. </p>

<ol>
<li>“Information comes at you fast and hard in engineering and it comes at you like a fire hose in med school” </li>
</ol>

<p>This kid signed up for AP Chemistry and stoichiometry and other important topics were not taught in her Honors Chemistry class. She managed to pulled off a 89% at the end of the year. She thrives under pressure.</p>

<ol>
<li>“Success in engineering isn’t just about study skills, it’s about having an eng’g mind…a problem-solver, being able to think outside the box, taking pieces of info and processing to come up with a conclusion/solution, etc.”</li>
</ol>

<p>Yes, I think she has demonstrated that by winning science contests. I’ve mentioned that in my last post.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>“I still think her best chance for success in eng’g or premed will be at S&T.”
I understand where you’re coming from and sometimes I think so too. It’ll be easier for her anyway. Less rigorous.</p></li>
<li><p>“Have you done the math to determine how big that $50k of debt will grow after undergrad, med school, and residency…along with the huge med school debt? Are you willing to cosign the amounts that exceed fed loans?”</p></li>
</ol>

<p>This is not a joke. I have already told my D that I will sell my house to pay for her college if I have too, providing that we look at all the pros and cons of spending the extra $25,000 over Missouri Science & Technology, to attend CWRU. Right now, I am leaning heavily towards CWRU for many reasons, but the #1 reason is: CWRU’s curriculum will make my D a well rounded student and prepare her well.</p>

<p>Tuition for graduate and medical school. We will look into programs where they will pay her tuition and give her a stipend. All hopes are not lost. Not yet! It’s hard to say where we will be in 5 years, opportunities come all the time, all we have to do is keep our eyes open. Like right now, I have the opportunity to get advises from you and other CC members. </p>

<p>Just 6 months ago, I didn’t even know CC exists. lol</p>

<p>Everyday we meet people and they all come with some kinds of knowledge and/or wisdom that contribute to our decision making process and the path that we take. Some people even come with life changing opportunities. </p>

<p>In any event, I know I have been very lucky to have met you guys here on CC. :)</p>

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<p>That is common for PhD programs. MD study is typically full pay (with massive student loans). See the tuition and fees for medical schools (does not include living expenses, and note that pre-meds are lucky to get even one acceptance, so there may not be much choice): <a href=“https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/”>https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/&lt;/a&gt; . A physician finishing medical school with $300,000 of medical school debt, with $50,000 of undergraduate debt, plus accumulating interest, probably won’t be able to pay it off until his/her mid-to-late 30s, if s/he lives a frugal student lifestyle while putting every extra dollar into debt service until then (s/he will only be able to start paying it down significantly around age 30 after completing residency).</p>

<p>Regarding the ACT, it has a reputation of requiring speed, so it was probably the worse of the standardized tests (versus the SAT) for her if she works slowly. However, all time-limited standardized tests will penalize those who work slowly, so the MCAT may be a significant hurdle for her.</p>

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<p>" so the MCAT may be a significant hurdle for her."</p>

<p>Agreed! But she has 4+ years to work on her speed. We know a few medical doctors and they told us that they too were slow learners, and test takers. </p>

<p>D understands that there’s a high chance she won’t get admitted into medical school, and that’s why she’s planning to major in Engineering, just in case. At least she’ll have a chance of getting work, have money to eat and pay her student loans. :)</p>

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<p>@LanaHere‌ - I disagree with mom2collegekids, but it is just an opinion. There is no way to really predict how a unique student like your daughter will do in an environment like CWRU. Heck, if it turns out that mom2collegekids is right and it is clear after freshman year she is in over her head, she can transfer to your state school and you will save buckets of money. It isn’t like her initial decision is irrevocable. If it looks like she is succeeding admirably, then great. You made the right decision.</p>

<p>@whenhen - I have to disagree that establishing Missouri residence is that simple for an undergrad. Look at all the points. The two key ones that stand out to me are</p>

<p>A) the student can’t be outside the state of Missouri more than 14 days in the summer. So she would have to pay for room and board for the summer on top of the other expenses she is incurring, not to mention missing time with her family most students enjoy. Perhaps a summer job would cover that expense, perhaps not.</p>

<p>B) This is the big one. The parents would no longer be able to claim her as a deduction on their taxes. For most families, this would be a financial hit as well, so that just adds to the burden.</p>

<p>The student also has to earn at least $2,000 during the year, but presumably that is not too high a barrier. The other requirements are fairly trivial, but the two I highlight do strike me as not being “quite easy”.</p>

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<p>I forgot to mention that D got a 29 the last time she took her ACT. So her speed is improving. </p>