Two good schools admissions, two financial concerns: Can't decide which school.

College Search & Lists
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<p>I posted this under another old thread but I think it’s better if I start a new thread.</p>

<p>My D has to make a decision between 2 schools:
CWRU (Case Western) & MO S&T (Missouri University of Science & Technology, formerly University of Missouri-Rolla).</p>

<p>If D attends CWRU, and major either in BME or Chem Eingineering, with premed track after the University and outside scholarships and grants, she will accumulate $50,000 in loan debts in 4 yrs.
If she attends Missouri University of Science & Technology, and major in Chem E or Biomedical Engineering, and with premed track, in 4 yrs, she’ll be $25,000 in debt.</p>

<p>Rankings:
Missouri University of Science & Technology :128 (US News); 443 (Forbes); Side Note: It has been said that MO S&T is underrated. Chemistry department ranking: 123 in the nation, according to this source:
<a href=“http://chemistry-schools.com/missouri-university-of-science-and-technology”>http://chemistry-schools.com/missouri-university-of-science-and-technology&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>CWRU - 37 (US News); 89 (Forbes), Chem E Department ranks 44th in the nation. Undegrad BME ranks much higher, either 10 or 17, I don’t remember exactly. CWRU requires 4 years of writing for their Engineering students… Seems like CWRU students are very well prepared. CWRU is well known for research. D was a paid Medical Research Lab Assistant. </p>

<p>Employment within 6 months of graduation:
MO S&T 62%
CWRU 86%</p>

<p>D is very much concerns about grade deflation, maintaining a good GPA (3.7 or higher) for medical school acceptance, and loan indebtedness.</p>

<p>Giving up a spot at a high ranking University like CWRU will be difficult.
Visited both campus and D has a lot of LOVE for CWRU.</p>

<p>According to D:

  • CWRU campus is more modern and very nice. D did an overnight visit and went rock climbing. Met very friendly students.
  • MO S&T has a brand new Chem E building. When I say brand new, they’re still building it, but it will be finished in August 2014 when D enters school. Ozarks atmosphere. I keep emphasizing old because it’s really really old.</p>

<p>D loves CWRU
D likes MO S&T</p>

<p>Is CWRU worth the extra $25,000 debt?</p>

<p>Everyone’s opinion is welcomed. </p>

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<p>Bump</p>

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<p>$25,000 is probably the most that people tend to feel comfortable with (just under the federal direct loan limit for four years). Most here would say that $50,000 of debt is too risky.</p>

<p>Given pre-med intentions, are there any other less expensive schools that she has been admitted to? Medical school is expensive, so saving money and avoiding debt in undergraduate can help.</p>

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<p>Yes, at state school MO S&T that I’ve mentioned in my post, she will end up with 1/2 of the debt. </p>

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<p>Are these two schools the only two options she has?</p>

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<p>Saint Louis U & Loyola-Chicago, same financial situation. Each school will leave her with $48,000 in loans at the end of 4 yrs. </p>

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<p>Oh and Saint Xavier, but with more loans, $60,000 in 4 yrs.</p>

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<p>There is a Huge difference between a school rated 37 and one rated 128. Further CWRU is known to employers nationally. MO S&T is known regionally. In the grand scheme of things $25000 should not dominate a discussion related to 4 years of college life. Choose the better college.</p>

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<p>Engineering major quality and prestige is a much narrower band than for other majors. And medical schools care a lot more about your GPA and MCAT score than the prestige of your college. So the “Huge difference” between schools is much smaller for the intended academic and professional goals.</p>

<p>It does look like her application list was not well thought out. Loyola and Xavier do not have any engineering, and are expensive. Saint Louis has biomedical but not chemical engineering, and is expensive. MUST has chemical but not biomedical engineering, and is just under the federal direct loan limit. CWRU has both biomedical and chemical engineering, but is expensive. Note that loans beyond the federal direct loan limit will require a co-signer (often a parent). This tends not to be a good idea for either the student or the parent.</p>

<p>I.e. MUST is her only somewhat affordable choice, but she has to be ok with chemical engineering.</p>

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<p><a href=“Physics (BS) + Engineering (BS): Department of Physics: Loyola University Chicago”>http://www.luc.edu/physics/engineering/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Re: <a href=“Physics (BS) + Engineering (BS): Department of Physics: Loyola University Chicago”>http://www.luc.edu/physics/engineering/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>That’s a 3+2 program. Generally, relatively few students actually make the transfer to the “2” school in 3+2 programs, probably at least in part due to not getting admitted to the “2” school or not getting enough financial aid at the “2” school.</p>

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<p>Case is a significantly better school than MUST. But, $50,000 of debt is too much IMO. I would probably go to MUST and save Case for grad/med school.</p>

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<p>I have a friend who went to Rolla undergrad and, after a time in a PhD program at Berkeley in biophysics, decided he wanted to become a doctor. He went to medical school. His undergrad education at Rolla was certainly more than adequate.</p>

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<p>SHE would not end up with $50K in debt. Her debt is limited to $31K in Stafford/Direct loans. Anything above that would be yours. How do YOU feel about taking on the additional $25K in debt? </p>

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<p>All these abbreviations are really killing me. </p>

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<p>Many hedge their bets and enroll in engineering in case they do not get admitted to medical school. Getting 3.5+ GPA in engineering, especially in ChemE, at many engineering schools, will require lots of work. You may want to investigate the GPA of incoming freshmen at both CWRU & MOS&T versus the GPA of seniors, and also how many ChemE/BME seniors at both institutions graduate with 3.5+ GPA. As UBCalum mentioned, medical schools care more about undergrad GPA & MCAT scores, and not about prestige of UG. Perhaps you may have already investigated the pre-med advising at both the universities, and opportunities for shadowing doctors and conducting medically related research? Also, please look into engineering placement statistics for ChemE/BME. </p>

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<p>I agree - your daughter won’t be able to take out more than the federal loan limits unless you are willing to co-sign on private bank loans for her. The federal loan limits are about $31,000, and I would definitely go into $30,000 of debt to go to Case Western. For an engineering degree, you can repay that money quite quickly, and that’s about the average for med school.</p>

<p>Even if you did co-sign for her, though, and she had $31,000 in federal debt and $20,000 in private bank loans - I’d still go to Case Western. I think when comparing two fairly comparable colleges the cheaper one is usually the better choice; or when comparing ridiculous debt to reasonable or no debt the cheaper one is also better. But $50,000 - while more than most students should borrow - isn’t outside the realm of repayment possibility, especially not for an engineering student. And the reason I say that is because I think the chances of her sticking with the engineering major are far greater than the chances of her sticking with the pre-med. Lots and lots of undergrad students are pre-med until they hit campus, or until after their first semester, or until after orgo…</p>

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<p>@LanaHere - I am very familiar with S&T, my wife is a Rolla native and her brother is a graduate of that school, back when it as UM Rolla. He is civil engineer. Just out of curiosity, where did you get those employment figures? I am not questioning them (well the S&T one seems low) but I just cannot find them. BTW, I would also ignore the ranking issue. Not only are rankings bogus, but as ucbalumnus says quite correctly, I think, in engineering most employers don’t care and for med school it is definitely about GPA, MCAT, and recs, and research helps. </p>

<p>That aside, yours is a very difficult case. Normally I would almost reflexively say go with the lower loan amount. $25K is usually easy to handle, $50K is usually more than a student should start their professional life with. But in this case you have a daughter that is either going to be an engineer or a doctor, at least as it now stands. There is always the risk that she will change her mind, or just not be able to make the grades. I know no one likes hearing that last statement about their own kid, but of course I don’t know your daughter. I am just covering the bases. But let’s be optimistic and assume that even if she drops the med school path, she does become an engineer. To answer your one question, a BS in BME is still a good degree and there are definitely employment opportunities out there in the field with excellent pay. That having been said, if she did go on to grad school in BME, it wouldn’t cost her anything. Most programs waive tuition and fees and pay a stipend to PhD students in that field, enough to cover room and board usually.</p>

<p>Anyway, my point is that with starting salaries for engineers being healthy and looking like they will stay that way for some time, the $50K won’t be the worst thing in the world. Obviously less is better, but the key is that the payments would be manageable. She just might have to put off buying that first house for a while, depending on the rest of her circumstances. Given that she likes CWRU much better, which is important, then it seems to me to be the better choice.</p>

<p>Let’s say she changes her mind about being an engineer and doctor. At least Case is also known for good departments in other areas, such as business. S&T not so much, her choices would be much more limited. And Cleveland does indeed offer more opportunities than a rural setting like Phelps County. St. Louis is 2 hours away. Which of course is another aspect to consider. Cleveland might not be NYC, but Rolla is very quiet with little for students outside of the college. Cleveland certainly offers more.</p>

<p>Let’s now look at if she does go on to med school. Not to trivialize another $25,000 in debt, but she will probably have to go another $300,000 or so in debt to attend med school, yes? Or let’s even say that due to family money and/or scholarships, it is an additional $200,000. So will it really matter that much if the total debt is $350,000 vs. $325,000 (or $250,000 vs. $225,000)? Only you and your daughter can decide overall what it is worth for her to be in a place she feels she will be happier in and therefore be more likely to do better in her classes. I think if it were me, and believe me I am a debt hawk so I am a bit shocked I am saying this, but if it were me I think I would pick Case given the particulars of the situation as you have described them. Having said that, should you decide to save the money and go the S&T route, it is a fine school and the people are extremely friendly and helpful. She will get an excellent education at either. But the non-academic factors are important as well. They are not in class 24/7. </p>

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<p>Employment within 6 months of graduation:
MO S&T 62%
CWRU 86%</p>

<p>I got those employment figures from:</p>

<p>For Case Western (CWRU). Look at the bottom of the Overview page where it says “students” section.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=966”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=966&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>MO S&T (formerly, University of Missouri- Rolla): Bottom of Overview page, “Students” section.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=819”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=819&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@lanahere - OK, I have looked at that site before but I don’t know where they get that data or how it is structured. But what really caught my eye and set off alarms was that S&T’s 4 year graduation rate is only 27% while Case is over 60%. Now maybe like some other schools (Northeastern comes to mind most notably) S&T students usually take a semester or a year of internship before graduating. But even their 5 year rate isn’t great. This could add to the cost of attending S&T and make the $25,000 savings an illusion. It might be worth checking this out with S&T before making a final decision. The facts really matter here. If they do take a year or whatever in the real world, are they getting paid? Are they still paying the school? How does it work, exactly? It would be good to know. If you find anything out, let us know. It could also be that whatever S&T students are doing is affecting the way that employment number gets reported. I have no idea, but its possible that it is misleading. It just still seems too low to me for a school graduating mostly engineers.</p>