I was just looking into my soul to see what I might have thought and said if one of those Holocaust survivors in Skokie had popped up with a WWII-era machine gun and mowed down a bunch of those marching Nazis. I like to think I would still have condemned the violence. But I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be holding up an “I am a Nazi” sign on the Internet.
Scholarme said it for me. Plus, I don’t get to decide for society whether a persons beliefs are good or not, unless their belief is to kill me for lawful activity. Then I want to know who they are and eliminate them from my life.
I find it pretty surprising that anybody would dodge the question of whether it’s morally good for Nazis to march through a town full of Holocaust survivors. And who’s deciding for society whether those beliefs are good or bad? We all seemingly agree that in our society, people are free to have and act out a wide range of beliefs. I feel perfectly comfortable condemning some of them as bad.
Marching Nazis knew nobody was going to shoot at them. There was little courage needed for that march.
Courage is saying something you know will get you shot at, like Malala. Or like Pamela. And saying it anyway.
I personally do not have that courage, but I recognize and admire it anyway.
“Well-behaved women seldom make history.”
As for the choice of harmony over provocation, I prefer freedom to utopia.
And that is your right, Hunt. Why do you care whether everyone holds the same moral convictions you do, if they are not killing people over it?
Or maybe like working in an abortion clinic. I admire bravery–in the service of good motives. The 9/11 attackers were brave. So what?
9/11 attackers murdered people.
That’s not free speech.
So you agree with me that just because something takes courage doesn’t make it a good thing to do. Right?
I thought it was clear that I was talking about the courage to speak for one’s principles despite threats of violence
@Lergnom People say “these things” in order to counter sweeping statements such as “I want to start having Muslims arrested for the things they say about Jews,” (your post #111).
Please understand that when you rather directly label any person a racist–for a post that simply refers to two of the world’s great religions and has absolutely nothing to do with, nor any reference to, race–that person should, and will, call you on it.
Saying someone provoked an attack does not mean you’re saying they deserved what happens to them — particularly when the reaction involves deadly force.
For example, a driver is cut off and gives the middle finger to the other driver…who then pulls a gun and shoots the first driver in the head. It’s clear the driver A provoked driver B, but A did not deserve to be shot in the head.
So, no, I am not saying that Geller and her followers deserved to be attacked with automatic weapons. If Geller is assassinated, I will not say that she deserved it.
Has anyone seen the musical “The Book of Mormon”? Suppose it were adapted to the Muslim religion. Does anyone here really believe that the cast, the producers, and their families wouldn’t need armed guards for the rest of their lives?
There’s a real problem here. I don’t know what the best solutions are, but the problem needs to be addressed because it seems to be getting much worse.
One goal of the radicals is to create enough fear that people self-censor even in the U.S., and they have probably succeeded already.
@Hunt, the difficulty with your statement, “Or maybe like working in an abortion clinic. I admire bravery–in the service of good motives.” is that for every person who see providing abortions as a brave and courageous act, there are a number who see as evil and not very brave.
There can be two sides to a story. Also, because I defend the Nazi’s right to march does not mean I agree with their cause but value freedom more. Freedom of speech isn’t a moral issue. Once decisions are made that certain speech is not worthy of protecting, it won’t be long before only very specific speech will be protected.
It I was a college student holding a protest and started walking or stomping on the US flag, do you think the college would suspend me or support my free speech? If another college student did a similar action with the rainbow flag, do you believe the college would respond the same way? I don’t.
People are very willing to protect the freedom of speech for which they agree but don’t argue to protect the speech they don’t agree.
I rather people be free to express themselves as they see fit so I can make an informed decision if I want to associate with them.
Interesting example. I certainly commend Mormons for not shooting the producers of that show, but do you have any qualms about a show that is designed to mock the beliefs of millions of people? The LDS church has responded wisely (in my opinion), such as by putting out ads suggesting that playgoers look into the real story of the religion. But the show mocks Mormons pretty hard. Is that a nice thing to do?
I dislike things that mock my own beliefs. It makes me sad and hurts my feelings when other people do that. And since one of the core commands of my own religion is to “Do unto others…”
Radical extremists don’t follow the golden rule. They will kill you if you draw Mohammed.
Hunt - I am not Mormon, but even though I’ve heard the show is very entertaining I haven’t seen “The Book of Mormon” precisely because I find sitting through two hours of a show devoted to mocking a religion distasteful on principle. I’ve been invited to go by friends and politely declined without explanation, but to me it’s the urbane equivalent of crowds in 1930’s Germany yucking it up watching performers make fun of Jews (though one important difference is that there probably isn’t conscious maliciousness).
But my/our personal beliefs are one thing. The larger societal reactions to the show are another, and that’s what’s interesting to me. “The Book of Mormon” has gotten good reviews and won awards. I imagine a well-done Catholic or Baptist equivalent would be received somewhat similarly among opinion makers; a Jewish equivalent would be met with strong denunciations; and a Muslim equivalent would be met with violence and terrorism.
Well, Mao did say “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”. Ultimately, he is exactly right. But a benefit of a healthy society is that we don’t have to live like that, and rewarding such tactics is horrible precisely because they will work if not condemned and defeated.
“Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.”
Benjamin Franklin
The Book of Mormon does mock the LDS beliefs pretty hard at the beginning, but as I recall the final scenes are a touching affirmation of what religion brings to the lives of people who believe, no matter what they believe.
And no, I can’t see anyone taking the chance to try something similar with Islam — theaters wouldn’t run it, actors probably would be reluctant to appear in it, audiences probably would stay away, sponsors wouldn’t finance it…so it’s true that self censoring both by the market and by artists is happening.
I don’t agree that Geller’s deliberately offensive contests — coming soon to a city near you — are the best response.
I’d like to see more of this approach:
I just saw a tweet by the winner of the Draw Muhammad Cartoon contest that he has been removed from Facebook.
An example of private self-censorship.
I don’t like the idea that declining to publish offensive material is cowardly self-censoring. If I ran my own newspaper or website, there would be lots of material I wouldn’t want to run. I think it’s confusing to use “censorship” with respect to the decisions of private entities anyway.
In my opinion, truly brave people are those who follow the golden rule when it’s dangerous or unfashionable to do so.