Two suspects shot dead by police after attack on peaceful hate group event in Garland, TX

That is one way to see it that appears correct. There are enough voices that preach tolerance and respect for the religion and cultures of “others” that the self-censoring becomes the target and the norm. We are so fearful to be seen as intolerant that we let the pendulum swing the other way, and wildly to boot.

The problem exists … and one of its appendices is the notion that it is justifiable if not imperative to counter the work of the pencil on paper with automatic weapons. We believe that the only option is to accept the religion, including its distorted current form that fuels the aggressions and the blatant intolerance of its most deluded followers.

Our biggest problem is that the solutions (if one can call them solutions) contradict our views of democracy and freedom. A fact that is exploited by the “other side” that is NOT intent to see peaceful cohabitation but the destruction of cultures that differ from their own.

Again, one can look at Europe for omens for the New World.

Don’t know if this was posted upthread:

Pamela Geller in Time.com
A response to my critics …
http://time.com/3847453/pamela-geller-a-response-to-my-critics-this-is-a-war/

So she pretty much admits that she was hoping to attract an attack like this. This doesn’t mean that she “deserved” the attack, or that her event should have been banned (straw men that she addresses, naturally).

So in other words, to “prove” something that we already know, she got a police officer wounded and exposed hundreds of people to the risk of death. She’s just lucky that she wasn’t targeted by more effective terrorists.

The twisting of clear terms and the indictment of the “straw men” are reaching an epic proportion. If this is not about finding obscure reasons to justify the attacks, I am not sure what the continuing debate is all about.

In the end, the answer --again that term-- is that the event should not have taken place, and henceforth the “need” for insulted peaceful muslims to arm themselves unwarranted?

Why is it so hard to admit that the event, as despicable it might appear to some, had every right to take place, and that the answers from a group of terrorist was not justifiable in any way, shape, or form, and the notion of a justifiable answer to provocateurs is pure horse manure. In Garland, they’d have a better and more direct term to define this entire descent in absurdity. The actions of those criminals were gratuitous and unjustified.

For me:

The reality of power is that the one with the biggest and best weapons and the willingness to unleash them is in control.

We certainly proved the USA was capable of this after 9/11.

The USA will never bow down to extremist terrorists. As a country we will defend ourselves and our way of life.

Now, setting up a cartoon drawing event just because you want to prove you have the right to mock someones religion and their leader is, in my humble opinion, childish and in this instance dangerous to innocent people.

Cartoons aside, Mohammed was an important historical figure and images of important historical figures are usual and expected. We shouldn’t tolerate a ban on images of Mohammed in our society.

The cartoons are easy to deride. How about considering the other themes of this or related events. What if this conference would have been a huge indictment of the human rights violations in Muslim countries, about the burden of having women reverting to the Middle Ages, the growing threat of Sharia views. Name it … a series of “experts” decrying the atrocities of what routinely happens in that part of the world, and elsewhere where it has been tolerated by attrition.

Again, forget the cartoons --a canard if there was ever one-- but think about an endless attack on the value of the distorted interpretations of that religion. Offensive and obnoxious to the extreme. Should we then also think the answer is that such event should be prohibited? What if the conference espoused the view of most reasonable people?

It really is the same thing!

xiggi, to me it is NOT the same thing at all.

I have never stated the cartoon event should have been prohibited. I just think it is in very bad taste and a poor way to demonstrate your values. It was meant to incite.

A conference as you have described would have been fine.

I don’t think we have a ban on images of Mohammed. Our liberties are enshrined in the Constitution and no jihadist can take them away. Period.

Witness the police and security guards risking their lives on behalf of Geller’s event. The mayor of Garland may have complained bitterly about the event bringing jihad danger to his town, but he never tried to stop the event, kick her out of the building, or refuse to deploy police to protect her.

Unless censorship is imposed through the power of the government, and of course it has not, the liberty to do as we please in regard to drawing Mohammed has not be taken away from us. That Geller choose not to self-censor on this point, and others joined her, is proof of that.

But if others do decide to self-censor regarding depictions of Mohammed, whether out of respect for the religious beliefs of others, or out of fear of retaliation, that also is a free choice. The liberty to depict or not depict Mohammed has not been taken away from anybody.

Those of us who disagree with Geller’s choice have a right to say we object to efforts to provoke lunatics in our midst to wage war on American streets for the sake of drawing some nasty pictures.

When the media and others self-censor out of fear of retaliation, they are setting the example to other religions and groups who feel disrespected that violence is necessary to be treated respectfully.

The group that ran this are basically your typical, right wing, Shariah law is coming Muslims are all evil school of things, and as such, they are no friend of the first amendment or free speech. This ‘exhibit’ was basically designed to be as disrespectful and vile as it can be, that is the whole point, and I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if they did this to try and get a violent reaction, so they can say “see, I told you so, Muslims are all terrorists”. I wouldn’t give this group any awards, at least Charlie Hedebo was an equal opportunity offender and was designed as outrageous satire, this thing is not.

And yes, with the first amendment comes responsibilities, there is the old idea that holds very true, that just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. There is a lot better ways to have discussions about religion, even to satirize it, where there is a purpose, Voltaire did a magnificent job of that in his writings vis a vis the Catholic Church (for all I know he is still on their list of proscribed books), angered a lot of the ‘faithful’, especially the hierarchy of the church, but it was done in an intelligent way that skewered the foibles without simply being stupidly gross. If anyone asked me, I would tell them that the people who put forth this ‘exhibit’ don’t deserve anything but scorn, it is stupid to do something like they did knowing what the reaction would be, they are like someone who kicks a bee hive and then is shocked the bees swarm out.

However, I also am really upset when I hear people talking about ‘restraining’ exhibits like this, in effect calling for censoring them, often in the name of ‘public safety’, and those doing so totally don’t understand what the first amendment is for or why hate speech laws and the like are dangerous. Sure, something like this looks like a no brainer, it is obviously totally offensive, it is so far out there that it is easy to say “it should be banned”. The problem is where do you stop? The first amendment was put in so the government couldn’t act against speech they found merely to be offensive, the law if you suppress speech requires proving that the speech itself can cause direct harm, proven harm, like yelling ‘fire’ in a movie house, or for example divulging secrets (and even that has a very, very heavy burden on it, the Nixon administration tried to get the Pentagon papers suppressed, and failed, in large part because a lot of secrets turn out to be politically harmful, not secrets that would endanger lives). If you start allowing suppression of “hate” speech, it can be used in ways people wouldn’t expect. Religious conservatives could get a gay pride event shut down, arguing that the very celebration of gay pride was hateful towards their faith (the Vatican did just that in Italy, and had a pride march cancelled in Rome back in 2000, and it was justified that the march was basically hateful of the church). Leftist politicians could use this to suppress speech by extreme right wing types, and vice versa. You go down that slope, of suppressing speech because it offends someone, you end up with a society with hidden hate and a powder keg waiting to blow up, or worse, a dictatorship that controls what can be said about it.

However, that also means that those who think the people who did this are inane morons have every right to vent their fury on them, too, through words, if some businessmen underwrote this exhibit, make them pay by boycotting them, which is free speech, too. The two pieces of garbage who did this shooting in many ways are just as bad as those who would call for the exhibit to be banned, both totally disrespect the idea of free speech, both are saying they have the right to determine what others hear or see because they find it offensive, both are doing something they shouldn’t be doing. Calling on people to self restrain is one thing, asking them to think about what they are doing, telling them to, either out of fear or the law, is wrong.

The other reason such laws are dangerous is that the justification for shutting down something like this ‘exhibit’ would be the threat of violence, as in “This is deliberately inflaming Muslims, it can/will cause violence, should be suppressed”, and what that does is play right into the hands of the type of people who would commit violence because they are offended, it is using the threat of violence as a reason to stop it from happening, it is allowing someone else to set the agenda, and it is dangerous. Franklin has often been quoted about those willing to give up liberty for safety deserve neither, but it is true here (the irony being that a lot of people who quote Franklin on this often, in fact, are exactly what he was making this quote about, the kind of people who say suppressing rights is needed to guarantee safety and so forth).

I am trying really hard to understand why we make distinctions about the drawing and the rest of the tenets of the interpretations of that religion. The Islamists object to non-followers to depict the image. Fine, but they also insist that their female followers hide most of their features, all the way to having to wear a full garb. Aren’t their hard core zealots not offended that the rest of the world ignores such rule? Are not religious people who might visit an Muslim country allowed to ignore the rules? In simple words, walk around without a veil?

Why are we supposed to share THEIR views on the cartoons but able to reject having every female wear a veil? Do we pick and choose which part are more “acceptable?”

And speaking about cartoons and caricatures, why would be worry about some hardcore Muslim think but ignore the past demonizing caricatures of say … Catholics, among others?

[QUOTE]
But if others do decide to self-censor regarding depictions of Mohammed, whether out of respect for the religious beliefs of others, or out of fear of retaliation, that also is a free choice. The liberty to depict or not depict Mohammed has not been taken away from anybody./QUOTE

jazzymom - I’m not so sure you’ve thought this out thoroughly or that you really believe this. Suppose I demand that you do something I want or I’ll cut your head off. If you then obey me because I’ve threatened you, then I really don’t think you are making a free choice.

Someone upthread objected to the use of the word “censorship” when applied to decisions of private entities. If theater owners or newspapers as a group typically didn’t show works such as “The Book of Mormon”, the “P**s Christ” photograph, or a Mahomet cartoon because, as generally nice people, they don’t want to gratuitously offend people, then I wouldn’t have used the word “censorship”. But I think it is a form of censorship since they are acting out of legitimate fear of being murdered. Perhaps the words “terrorized”, “coerced”, or “intimidated” would be somewhat more accurate though.


[quote]
Suppose I demand that you do what I want or I'll cut your head off. If you then obey me because I've terrorized you, then I really don't think you are making a free choice.

[/quote]

If someone is being threatened like that, and feels terrorized, I still say that they have a choice in the context of life in the U.S. It is not an easy decision to make considering the possible repercussions, but unless one is being held captive, there is still choice. I don’t mean to take it lightly, but you can choose to go into hiding or choose to risk being killed.

I still don’t get how Charlie Hebdo is sanctified, yet anti-Semitic speech is banned by law in France and Germany.

As for this event, we don’t have laws against outright blasphemy of any religion, do we? But we also have many many examples of people feeling they were insulted or shamed, or actually insulted or shamed, and them taking a gun to the “offender”. This case is nothing more than that.

My personal opinion is that there should be more of these events, to expose loonies’ extremist views to other loonies’ extremist views. If the Islamophobes and would-be terrorists killed each other, we’d all be happier and get along better.

Charlie Hedbo has been sanctified because in a sense, they were made a martyr to free speech. I don’t know why French Law doesn’t cover them, I suspect in part it is because Charlie Hedbo is a satire magazine whose offense is towards everyone and everything, it is very hard to call Charlie Hedbo a hate group when they skewer all religious, all institutions, where they don’t single out any one group to offend. To be hate speech I suspect the law requires that it be truly meant to be hateful. There is a difference between distasteful and hateful, with hate you have to show intent, a group selling copies of the protocols of the elders of Zion cannot be considered anything but a hate group, someone with cartoons that depicted Jews as evil bankers, the Pope as a child molester, Muslims as being born terrorists, politicians all as on the take and corrupt is a lot harder to call a hate group, because the intent isn’t there. Being disrespectful of all institutions is not hateful, disrespectful, tasteless, yes. What is interesting to me is the writers in Pen who got upset at Charlie Hedbo getting a PEN award for freedom focused on Charlie Hedbo’s content about Muslims and were decrying that they were making fun of an oppressed minority in France, were basically saying those who committed the acts were justified in doing what they did (sorry, when you say “what do you expect, Charlie Hedbo made merciless fun of an oppressed minority”, I don’t care if they say “Of course we decry violence”, that is BS, they are justifying what happened). What is funny is Charlie Hedbo also skewers Jews, and these days Jews don’t exactly have a great time in France, anti semtism is alive and well and flourishing, between the resurgent right wing political groups and the hate thrown at them from the same muslim minority, and face outright violence, yet the writers said nothing about Charlie Hedbo making fun of Jews, tad bit hypocritical, to say the least.

There is a French law about challenging the existence of the Holocaust but about Jews, Christians, etc. there is only the general law that says you can’t disparage a person for being this or that ethnicity or religion (or being handicapped) and that law has been applied unevenly to cases where individual courts say people are being disparaged as x or y, for being Jewish or Muslim or something. They have a more restrictive approach to free speech in some ways, meaning they sometimes apply restrictions to individual speech - mostly for “provoking hatred” - but they have a specific, perhaps contradictory freedom of the press rule. I think the most famous case is an idiotic one brought against Bob Dylan for provoking hatred of Croats.

It’s pretty clear that under French law skewering a religion is not provoking hatred, if only because a bunch of cases have been brought by Muslims for insults. I know one was against Charlie Hedbo.

I know that Jews in France have been reluctant to bring cases against Muslims - particularly Imams - who make absolute slanderous statements about Jews, many on video, on TV, on radio. They not only fear the consequences but also generally support free speech.

This is simply not true – it’s too broad. Holocaust denial is illegal in France and Germany (among other European countries), and Germany – for obvious reasons – also prohibits things like displaying swastikas, selling Mein Kampf, etc. Obviously, there’s a whole lot of possible anti-Semitic speech beyond what’s prohibited, and I can assure you that people engage in it all the time in France, and sometimes in Germany. As for Charlie Hebdo, it published a number of cartoons which I would construe as anti-Jewish (see the one reproduced in this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/charlie-hebdo-trudeau-pen-garland/392255/). And anyone who thinks it focused only on mocking Islam should take note of the Paris Match study showing that over the last decade, with more than 500 cover cartoons, exactly 7 had Islam or Muslims as their subject.

Mein Kampf is only prohibited in Germany because the owner of the copyright, the German state of Bavaria, refuses to allow publication there. But there are announced plans to publish it in Germany when that copyright expires in 2016.

http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-hitler-mein-kampf-germany-20150225-story.html

[url=<a href=“http://redfirefarm.com/newspages/?p=33%5DHere%5B/url”>http://redfirefarm.com/newspages/?p=33]Here[/url] is a story that I think actually does make Geller’s point: a Hannity program (not a fan, btw) in which the opposing guest, a British Muslim, says she should be tried under Sharia law and executed: “She should be put before a Sharia court and tried and, if guilty, face capital punishment.” (He then says she’s worse than a pig, which is specifically Muslim form of insult because pigs are unclean.) It is stuff like this, people like this, which make people afraid of attempts to bring any form of Sharia into the US. And it definitely makes Geller’s point, which is that you need to “provoke” these people so they reveal exactly what they are. As much as I dislike Geller, that is exactly a major function of the 1st Amendment: protecting speech so it can be used as a means of revealing truths, however uncomfortable.