So my son was born in the U.S so he has full citizenship, however all of his schooling was done in Canada. We live right on the border between U.S and Canada. He is a grade 9 student, going to grade 10. He is extremely capable, and marks are no issue. Our plan for his future is for him to study post-secondary in the United States, and go to medical school.
Since this is a very long and expensive path our only concern is how things will be financially. If he were to graduate from a Canadian high school, would that lower his chances of getting scholarships or the size of scholarships? Also would colleges charge us out of state fees or international student fees.
The main reason I ask this is because since I work in the U.S. we are considering moving there for his grade 11 and 12 years, if graduating from a Canadian High School won’t allow him to get scholarships as well or at all.
Scholarship can refer to ‘need-based’ aid or ‘merit’.
You can roughly calculate how much ‘need-based’ aid your son is likely to qualify for by running the ‘net price calculators’ (npc) on every college’s website (note that there are things, such as owning your own business or having a lot of real estate that can throw off the calculator- there are a lot of people on CC who can offer advice on that). Colleges are either need-aware (most) or need-blind (a few) in admissions- that is, the admissions committee knows whether financial aid is required and it can play a role in whether an offer is made. Be aware that even colleges that say they ‘meet need’ get to pick the formula by which they determine how much you need (you might not agree with them), and they get to choose variables such as whether different forms of aid can ‘stack’, how much in the way of loans is reasonable, etc. There is a lot of help available here on CC on how it works in practice, and a lot of expertise even with how specific colleges/universities work.
Merit aid is basically an incentive to a student to come to one college in preference to another. There are a lot of variations, but in general the more the student is a ‘catch’ for the school the more likely they are to get significant merit aid, especially at schools that are actively looking to raise their profile. There are lots of lists here on CC of generous merit schools, and you can look at the “Common Data Set” on collegedata.com for every college for how many students get merit and how much they average (lots of other useful data on collegedata as well).
Some high achieving students struggle with the idea of going to a less ‘prestigious’ name than their stats would otherwise qualify them for, but financial realities are what they are, and it’s the rare 18 year old who can really grasp what having $200K in med school debt means.
Also, some students aiming for med school think that they need a highly ranked undergrad to get into med school- they don’t. However, if you think that your son is realistically on a med school path (only about 10-20% of students who go into college as ‘pre-med’ actually stay the course), you might encourage him to look at doing undergrad in states where there are medical schools with good in-state tuition discounts. For example, VCU is $80K/year COA for out of state, $60K for instate; up your way SUNY med school tuition is $20K/term instate, vs $32K/term OOS. Note that for both undergrad and grad, out of state fees are only relevant to public (state) universities; for private universities the fees are the same for everybody.
Universities in Canada are inexpensive compared to US universities. If your son is a dual citizen or landed immigrant in Canada he would save a lot of money by staying in Canada. His chances of getting into a Us medical school are just as good if he has a degree from UToronto, UBC or McGill.
Would it not be beneficial to get into medical school in the U.S. if he were to get a pre-med degree in the U.S. as well? Please inform me if i’m incorrect or over-reacting.
State residency only matters for state universitie and they vary tremendously in the aid that they give, whether they give need or merit, and what is availble for people from OOS. For example, Kentucky is about to switch from almost entirely merit to almost entirely need-based. Alabama has some famously generous merit awards.
I don’t have the experience to say whether it would matter at all, but Canadian universities- and only Canadian universities- are specifically included in the pre-req statements of US medical schools (ie, "you must have taken these courses in the US or Canada). Of course, you wouldn’t be eligible for instate rates at state schools, but you can do some math and compare the net difference once you add in the (presumably) less expensive undergrad.
All medical schools in Canada are fully accredited by the American accrediting board: LCME. If he is going to medical school then undergraduate debt should be kept to a minimum. At about US$7,000 tuition per year at UToronto or McGill plus the possibility of need and merit aid there they are a bargain.
A Canadian degree will not lessen his chances of admission to a US medical school although he would not have in state status anywhere.
At US schools merit aid is generally available to all applicants but most top 30 colleges do not offer merit aid. Need based aid is generally available only to US citizens except at highly endowed colleges e.g Harvard, Yale etc. But your son is a US citizen so that would not be an issue.
BTW the University of California gives no financial aid to OOS applicants at all.
Do you mean all medical schools in Canada allow graduates to work in the US or all university pre-med degrees in Canada allow graduates to study at US medical schools?
Unlike foreign graduates, who need to spend 1-2 years at a US college before they apply to med school, Canadian universities ’ graduates are allowed to apply directly with their Canadian credentials.
However, because of grade deflation, attending university in Canada makes it harder to pass the threshold of GPA x mcat that means first selection or first cut. A 3.0 at U Toronto is respectable but will be much lower than what is needed for medical school admissions.
Another problem may be that Canadian degrees may not be flexible enough to accommodate the new med school /mcat requirements due to early specialization: a chemistry major may not be able to take the English, sociology, psychology classes, perhaps not statistics or physics. Check out if the universities offer the more flexible 'major ’ path rather than 'subject, honours '.
What would be the difference between the “major” path and “subject, honours”? Would it still provide the same degree? Also how do US medical schools translate a Canadian GPA to an American one?
A Canadian GPA equals an American GPA, there is no conversion. I think that whole notion of grade deflation is an excuse students use to rationalize their low GPA’s, both in Canada and the US. Many feel they should be graded on effort rather than results.
My son graduated from McGill. He had a friend there, another Bostonian, who graduated with a 3.4 GPA and had a very high MCAT. He was admitted to Tufts, BU and UMass medical schools. He was denied at Harvard Med, oh well, can’t win them all.
Graduates of Canadian medical schools can practice in the US and vice versa. Canadian medical school graduates are not considered “foreign” medical school graduates. The US and Canada have the same system of medical education.
American and Canadian grading scales look the same but don’t mean the same. In Canada a 2.8 is pretty good and everyone knows it. The meaning of a 2.8 in a US college is totally different. It may mean no internship for example (because a 3.0 is expected.)
The issue is that there’s no conversion for us medical schools because a computer makes the first cut based on MCAT x GPA. A 3.4 at McGill is like a 3.8 at many us universities; the student was lucky not to be cut right there as often anything below 3.6 is cut. (except for special cases factored in). So the student has to make sure that either they have an incredibly terrific Canadian GPA or check whether the med school accommodates for Canadian GPA’s (might exist, don’t know).
Something for OP to look into : can a Canadian citizen attend a Canadian medical school after attending college in the US?
Costs : some states already have reciprocal agreements with the Canadian province they share a border with (Maine, Minnesota).
The case of moving to NYS if you’re close to that border would make more sense, since if the parents reside in nys for a year before the student applies to Suny 's and/or the student graduates from a nys high school, Suny 's are at instate rates and are a bargain. This would not prevent a Canadian permanent resident or citizen to apply to Canadian universities at the Canadian rate so it’s be win-win.
Yes he certainly can. And @MYOS1634’s claim that a 2.8 in Canada means “is totally different” from a 2.8 at a US university is patently wrong. There are similar complaints about “grade deflation” here on CC from students at Boston University made by students who did not get the grade they feel they “deserved”.
If my son continued his secondary education in his current Canadian high school, and get his bachelor degree and other prerequisites in a Canadian university, he would have no more difficulty getting into an American medical school than any other American citizen? (Reminder: He has Canadian and American citizenship)
Also, since from what I’m being told, the US and Canada have the same system for medical education. Would a Canadian pre-med education be adequate enough for him to do well in things like the MCAT and general American med school academic requirements?
I have a dual citizen S20 who wants to go to med school. (I know it’s early, but his sister18 is gunning for Canada, so it’s a frequent topic of conversation at our house). Canadian universities are definitely on son’s radar for undergrad. My concerns are:
Advising. Will they have the same quality of guidance when it comes to preparing students specifically for US med schools?
GPA. It’s unclear exactly how American med schools weigh GPAs coming out of Canadian universities, as you can see from this thread.
Flexibility with courseload. Canadian universities as a whole (with some exceptions–McGill appears to be one) have less room for electives. Med school pre-reqs are quite broad. It could mean a few summer classes or difficult semesters to fit it all in.
Having said all that, I recently ran across this program at UBC: http://cps.med.ubc.ca/undergraduate/
It looks extremely intense but WOW. Talk about great preparation for med school.
I don’t want to enter a dispute about grading. Just look at what’s considered competitive in Canada and what’s considered competitive in the US, whether to enter universities (UT, McGill, UBC/ UMichigan, Northeastern) or medical schools. Or look at the conditions for the super selective CAPS Honours.
Another possibility : do a DEC Science Honours or DEC Arts&Science, and apply directly to medical school in Quebec.
He is what…15 years old…or so? And your plan is for him to go to medical school?
I think you have put the cart before the horse. He can attend any college on the U.S. or Canada, and potentially go on to medical school…in 7 or 8 years. But really…by that time…he might have a very different world view on becoming a doctor.
At this point, in 9th grade, he should be concentrating on HS, his grades there, his ECs, his teenage life. He doesn’t need to, nor should he feel,he needs to target colleges…now.
Many Canadian medical schools require the MCAT. The DEC programs that @MYOS1634 mentions are only available to Quebec residents and is similar to the combined 6 year BA/MD programs that are offered at many US universities.
The only disadvantage for your son in applying to US medical schools with a Canadian degree is that he would not have instate status for public medical schools that give preference to instate residents. Even if he attends undergrad in the US he would still not have instate status as long as you live in Canada.