UChicago vs. Pepperdine

Colleges & Universities University of Chicago
1

<p>Okay, here’s an interesting comparison for you. So I’ve narrowed down my college decision to UChicago and Pepperdine University. Chicago’s greatest attraction for me is the academic rigor and intellectual aura, which I love but which aren’t quite as prominent at Pepperdine (and considering how hyperintellectual UChicago is, that’s no insult). On the other hand, I intend to go to grad school and end up in academia (so where I get my Bachelor’s doesn’t matter as much) and I really liked how tight professor-student relationships seemed at Pepperdine (to be fair, this is partly just a reflection of Chicago’s preeminence as a large research university with sprawling postgraduate divisions - such institutions simply seem to put a little more distance between teachers and pupils). I also tend to be a really introverted person, and my greatest regret in high school is all the opportunities I missed out on because my natural inclination is to shut myself up in the library and read; in short, I don’t want to repeat the same mistake in college, and (a) Chicago students seem to share the aforementioned tendency, (b) the weather and environment is not as conducive to social activity, and (c) as an (open-minded) conservative Christian at a preponderately liberal and secular school, I think I would have to work a little harder at finding friends with common goals and values. Then there’s the price-tag difference: Chicago (unsurprisingly) is offering me nothing, while Pepperdine, with the same sticker-price, is offering $30,000 a year. My parents generously offered to the pay the difference as long as I can justify paying an extra $120,000 over four years for an undergrad degree. Flattered as I am, I don’t know if I can, in good conscience, ask my parents to do that. All that being said, there’s no doubt that Chicago is more rigorous academically - there’s a reason why it’s been my dream school for years now - and something in me has a really hard time letting go of that dream.</p>

<p>Thoughts are welcome. In particular, I wanted to know from UChicago students whether or not my social fears are overblown or have some legitimacy.</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>johnmilton1</p>

2

<p>They are really SUCH different colleges, barely a tick away from not being in the same universe. Pepperdine awards undergraduate degrees, of course, and if that’s all that you want – an undergraduate degree – it’s going to be hard to explain why one is worth $120,000 more than another. But degrees from the two colleges are practically different products. If Pepperdine really meets your needs, then you should go there, but if Pepperdine really meets your needs I don’t understand why you ever wanted to apply to the University of Chicago.</p>

<p>I am not a Chicago student, of course, but I am confident that (a) your “social fears” are overblown, but more importantly (b) they have practically no importance next to the monumental differences between the two colleges. (Including, by the way, the cost difference. Seriously, you might be willing to spend $120,000 more on the University of Chicago if you thought you might be less introverted there? If you could go outside more?) If you are making your decision on that basis, then you are missing something (a few things) fundamental. I will suggest, however, that it’s far easier to have long conversations with people about Benjamin’s concept of aesthetic shock when it’s -10 degrees outside and anyone who leaves faces a prospect of frostbite than when everyone is trying to surf or play beach volleyball during the conversation. Also, when everyone knows (and cares) what Benjamin’s concept of aesthetic shock is.</p>

<p>By the way, what graduate work do you intend to do for which Chicago and Pepperdine will prepare you equally well?</p>

3

<p>Okay, first off, I completely understand what you mean by UChicago and Pepperdine being in different worlds. I know because I visited both campuses. However, I’m very conflicted because there are things I really like about both. As someone who is almost obsessively academic, Chicago was by far the most impressive school I visited, including other top-10 schools. As I said, there is an academic aura that is almost infectious. I love that. That is why, before visiting any of the campuses, Chicago was my unequivocal first-choice - if Chicago had Early Decision, I would have applied Early Decision. Pepperdine is very different, but I think you may be a little harsh. Have you visited? I ask because I didn’t even consider going there (it was emphatically my LAST-choice school - I only applied because I needed a safety school and because both my older siblings are there) until I sat down and talked with the professors, walked around campus, sat in on some classes, etc. I was really impressed. It’s obviously not going to be as academically focused or rigorous as Chicago, but I’ve always believed that school is as rigorous as you make it.</p>

<p>As for grad school: I’m a Philosophy major, so obviously the size and reputation of UChicago’s department mean a lot. On the other hand, there are certain advantages to being in a smaller department which the professors are trying very hard to develop - more personal attention, etc. When I visited Pepperdine, I got a call on my cell-phone from the head of the Philosophy department trying to recruit me. Further, my teachers in high school, all of whom have advanced degrees in their fields, tell me that “brand name” isn’t as important as a lot of people think, and that I might be better off really applying myself at a less “prestigious” institution and graduating in the top 5% of my class. After all, there is a very real sense in which the level of education you receive at University has more to do with the student than the school. The opportunities are always there. You just have to push a little harder in one place rather than another.</p>

<p>Finally, I never said that if I had NO social concerns about Chicago I would be willing to spend $120,000 more. The cost is a supplementary consideration, on top of the others. There’s no need to simplistically reduce all my concerns into single one about “going outside” more or less. I wish college decisions were as easy as knocking down caricatures.</p>

<p>All that said, I completely appreciate your response. To be honest, it’s exactly what I expected and the way I would have responded only a month or two ago. Yet ever since I have been pushed towards a decision, my closest mentors and teachers - who probably know me better than I do - have seemed to universally end up recommending Pepperdine, partly because of the cost, partly because of the social reasons. I didn’t give much credit to them either until everyone I asked who knew me told me the same thing. And like I say, these are not people without experience in academia. One of them currently attends grad school at UChicago.</p>

4

<p>johnmilton1, what I know about Pepperdine I mainly know through one of my cousins, who went there, married another student, settled in the area, remained very involved with the college, and raised two children who are both recent graduates of Pepperdine. I both love and respect my cousin and his wife enormously, and I have a strong sense of what Pepperdine means to them and what it has given them. I have walked around the campus with them. I have also had reasonably detailed conversations with their kids about what they were doing in college when they were there. They both loved Pepperdine to death, and were very successful there. They are both admirable people.</p>

<p>You are completely right that the education you receive in college has more to do with you than with the college. You are right that being a big fish in a smaller pond can be a valid strategy for success (although hardly a guarantee). You are also right that your college’s brand name means relatively little. And it’s easy to understand why the philosophy professors at Pepperdine would be thrilled to have you there. </p>

<p>What’s more, at Chicago you would probably develop a meaningful relationship with at most 3-4 members of the Philosophy department, and at Pepperdine you will have the same number of meaningful relationships. The only difference will be that at Chicago they will represent a fraction of the department, and at Pepperdine they will be the whole department. At Chicago, what interests you will factor into what you study, but if you are smart you let what the good teachers are teaching influence what your interests are. At Pepperdine, you will have less choice – you will simply take what the people there have to offer – but that doesn’t in and of itself mean that you will learn less or be less interested in what you learn. And, as you know, at Pepperdine you won’t have to compete with graduate students for attention, and it’s unlikely that any of the professors will be brilliant theorists who couldn’t teach their way out of a paper bag.</p>

<p>Sure, at Chicago you will have to look harder (but not as hard as you think) to find other serious, conservative (but open-minded) Christians. (You will have no trouble at all finding other serious, conservative (but open-minded) non-Christians.) At Pepperdine, of course, finding Christians is not a problem. But go on College Navigator, and look at what people at Pepperdine major in. There are really only a couple hundred people per class who have a focused major in an academic, non-vocational subject – and really no academic graduate students around to swell their ranks. At Chicago, 100% of undergraduates get some serious engagement with mainstream Philosophy through their Hum and Sosc courses, and wanting to get a PhD in Philosophy is a completely normal ambition. How hard are you going to have to look at Pepperdine for peers in any dimension other than religious practice and general politics?</p>

<p>The bottom line is that Chicago is a community with 10,000 students (forget professional students) who share your intellectual, academic, and career interests, if not necessarily your religion, and a faculty configured to teach them at the highest level possible. Pepperdine is a much smaller community where pretty much everyone shares your religion but only a few people close to your age share your intellectual, academic, and career interests, and the university is not designed to produce future Philosophy PhDs. That’s not to say it can’t do that, but it’s not its core mission.</p>

<p>(Pepperdine is also breathtakingly beautiful, and with a climate whose only flaw is that constant perfection might get a little boring. For what it’s worth, the people are generally much better looking than the people at Chicago, and only partly because they spend more time making sure they look good, but they are a lot less likely to engage in random hook-ups with you or anyone else.)</p>

<p>(I suspect nothing I have said so far is news to you at all. So let my put something on the table that may be news to you. If you go to Pepperdine, you are very likely to wind up in a Philosophy PhD program, although not necessarily a top one. You will get a solid grounding in what an undergraduate should know, so you will be well prepared, and all your teachers will be on a mission to get you into grad school. If you go to Chicago, there’s a 50-50 chance, or better, that you will wind up doing something else. Why? Because you will see, up close and personal, what a top Philosophy grad program looks like, and it’s not all pretty.)</p>

5

<p>I think a lot of your concerns are overblown, and a lot of the perceptions you have of UChicago are simply not true. Distance between professors and pupils? Not true. My humanities classes had 4 students. One of my first-year biology classes was 1:1. My social science professor was willing to spend at least one hour every week just to talk to me about the readings (and life in general)! Professors have to really enjoy teaching to come to this school. Their expectations are high, but every single one I’ve met is exceptionally caring and encouraging. All of the professors at this honorable institution want their students to excel. Your perception of the distant relationship between the students and the professors is simply not true.</p>

<p>As for concern (c), I am a Christian myself, and there are just so many religious groups on-campus. If you want to know some of the good ones, shoot me a message. The opportunities are there, and it is up to you to take advantage of them.</p>

<p>If you already have these erroneous perceptions of UChicago, I really don’t think you’re going to be happy here. If I were you, I would pick Pepperdine. But if you really have a tendency to shut yourself up in the library, you’ll do the same at Pepperdine.</p>

6

<p>Thanks so much for your thoughts JHS. They have been very helpful.</p>

<p>If I may ask, what do you think I would find so discouraging about Philosophy grad programs? Also, to give voice to my greatest concern about Pepperdine, do you think that attending there would significantly lower my chances of getting into the grad school of my choosing?</p>

<p>Divine Comedy: First off, I said there was “more” distance; it was meant as a comparison, not an absolute statement. Second, I am the first to admit that I am working off of a two day visit at each place and the comments of those I know and respect, and that this could very well be an unrepresentative sample. Indeed, if I were not concerned that it was, I would not be here. Induction is, after all, an inherently imperfect process.</p>

7

<p>Being a PhD student in the humanities is hard. There’s an ungodly amount of work, and lots of stress, competition, and loneliness, and at the end of the process only a relatively small chance of a really satisfactory job. And being a tenure-track assistant professor isn’t a whole lot better. It’s easy to get depressed or discouraged. People with the intelligence and skills to succeed in a high level PhD program can usually find other intellectually challenging things to do that involve a lot less deferred gratification.</p>

<p>As for “the grad school of your choosing” – getting into a top PhD program is much tougher than getting into Harvard for college – acceptance rates are in the 2-3% range. “Stats” – GRE scores, undergraduate grades – are almost completely irrelevant provided you clear a fairly low hurdle. Nothing helps much, and nothing makes it impossible, either. You basically have to be really interesting, and have great recommendations, and luck. </p>

<p>You can usually look at the vitae of grad students on departmental websites. If you do, I think you’ll conclude that it’s not impossible to get into a top program coming from Pepperdine, although you may have to get an MA someplace else first. Going to Chicago won’t give you any guarantees, that’s for sure, but there are a lot more people from places like that (elite research universities and LACs) than there are from anywhere else.</p>

8

<p>I am neither as thoughtful nor as articulate as JHS, so I’ll be brief (and blunt). If you are being honest when you describe your commitment to academics and your wish to pursue a graduate degree in the humanities, then… my goodness. This isn’t a close call. You are talking about different ball parks, different universes… you pick the overused metaphor. Completely. Totally. Different. An undergraduate degree from Chicago will signify and embody your commitment. It will communicate to graduate schools the kind of training and rigor to which you’ve been exposed. </p>

<p>I’ll stop there.</p>

<p>By the way, I have no connection whatsoever to Chicago, other than that my son applied last year, and we both fell in love with it. He’s somewhere else now - at a place of comparable academic standing - but it was a very difficult decision. And I’m still checking the Chicago threads…</p>

9

<p>As much of a fan as I am of my own university, University of Chicago, if I were you I’d go to Pepperdine.</p>

<p>Just that $120, 000 in and of itself alone is enough to make me choose another school over Chicago hands down. Most other reasons (weather, sociability, etc) are relatively trivial, but I do not believe that a degree from Chicago would be worth an extra $120, 000 when Pepperdine is nothing to sneeze at and you can go for much cheaper.</p>

10

<p>I feel like we run into “don’t pay the difference” all too often. I think it’s perfectly OK to pay the difference when the parents are willing to do so and can do so comfortably. I know my brother, who is full pay at Yale, got a number of full-tuition offers from various schools without even applying. The fact is that we never considered any of those for an instant.</p>

11

<p>pepperdine!</p>