I forgot to add a couple of things: any math major should have a few statistics courses and should seriously think about a minor in CS or business or social sciences etc., so that the degree is marketable. With AP credits, perhaps a double major is doable in 4 years - depends on the programs and the university. With the current glut of math PhD’s, and shrinking opportunities in academia, having a backup plan and an open mind is extremely prudent.
I grew up in AZ, did my undergrad at ASU, and I thought it was an open-minded campus, but that was many moons ago. Sorry to hear that OP’s daughter did not find it supportive for her needs - the campus climate must have changed quite a bit.
My D has a good friend who’s a math major at UCLA. He loves it, although the classes are pretty easy for him and he loves accessibility to the beach and general running around having fun. He is a math genius by all accounts though, so for mere mortals I’m sure the program is sufficiently challenging.
Bear in mind that UCLA is only a 6 hour drive from Phoenix. Add transportation costs into your total cost calculation. How many times would your D be flying if she went to one of the other schools? How many times would you fly with her? I’m guess there’s a few thousand bucks in plane tickets there.
Also add in the cost of clothes for Minnesota, since you’re from AZ. Another 1-2k in warm weather clothes, vs none for UCLA? I also feel like the West coast, either CA or WA, will be more welcoming for LGBT but you’d know more about that than me. Anyway, my D is currently at UCLA and loves it, so I’m obviously biased. Congrats on the merit aid, have to say I’m very envious of that!
Thanks for all the great advice. Agreed we should look into a minor to align with math. D is going to look into CS options at UW and UCLA. Really glad we came to visit U Minn this week. D was hoping to find it comparable to UW since the cost is less but has decided it’s not the right fit. Down to 2 choices!
@ProudMomfromAZ congrats for these excellent options! I don’t think you can go wrong with either option, but I gotta give the nod to UCLA. (Don’t get me wrong, UW is a great school.)
As anomander said, it is cheaper and quicker to get there. If you want to show up and surprise her and take her to dinner, it is just a matter of jumping in the car and driving there.
It is overall much more selective in admissions, with a strong alumni network. If your daughter changes her major or decides to stop after getting her BS, this could matter.
Which area of math is she most interested in? I would note UCLA is considered near the top of the country in several areas of math.
Did she apply for an Alumni scholarship from UCLA?
Oh, and I would second mathprof’s advice - a minor in CS would be a great idea.
An MA in math might be useful as a credential for some high schools. A Trans kid, may want to look not just at the college itself, but some of the surrounding area. I’m pretty sure LA would be just fine, but am less familiar with the mid-west.
Grad school rankings DO matter for math. She is only considering top twenty schools so either choice works. I would assume she will be able to take a few grad level courses as an undergrad and otherwise interact with math faculty. I know this happens at UW-Madison (ie Wisconsin). I presume all three schools on her list will have plenty of courses and offer a lot of material in each class.
BTW, the employment data does not distinguish between temporary appointments and tenure track appointments. There are many more of the former than the latter.
@mathprof63, thanks for the link. Any idea why math PhDs have nearly doubled in the last 10+ years? Where are they coming from in terms of institutions? I’m assuming most of the top U’s are pretty set in terms of their candidate numbers. So are these increases coming from mid and lower tier schools?
Even PhD’s from stellar U’s do not always get jobs- eg U Chicago plus MIT credentials. Perhaps a good thing my son added comp sci and does software instead of grad school…
Good to major in math and revise courses and goals along the way. Math grad schools have many foreign nationals from both Europe and Asia- my son aimed too high for grad school choices then changed plans. Perhaps a blessing in disguise. His math is useful in CS- there was a lengthy article about that some months ago. It is amazing how many uber brilliant math majors there are- the US is still amagnet for them.
@ihs76 : the linked report breaks the numbers down by type of institution, and also by citizenship. I teach at a directional university, and am often on search committees. We may get over 200 applications for a one-year temporary position in math. Any PhD from a university outside the top 50 is filtered out and so are non-US citizens, since we cannot sponsor any work visas. Still leaves us a good chunk of applications to sift through.
The top universities take in few PhD students, so many gravitate to less prestigious institutions that are trying to bolster their reputations. Starting to look more like a Ponzi scheme than an intellectual enterprise. I do not encourage anyone to pursue a Phd in pure math or even applied math. Stats is a different story altogether - we can’t find any of those who are US citizens with native English fluency to teach. A lot of PhD stats folks go to industry.
Tenure-track faculty jobs at research universities are an unfavorable numbers game (in any major). Each such faculty member supervises a dozen or few graduate students to PhD completion over his/her career, so that means that there are many times more new PhD graduates than jobs opening up due to tenure track faculty retiring.
That means that the “excess” PhD graduates need to find other jobs:
Faculty at LACs. (But LACs are small.)
Faculty at non-research universities. (Yes, there are many such schools like CSUs, but their faculty jobs are far fewer than the number of PhD graduates.)
Faculty at community colleges. (Again not enough to absorb all of the PhD graduates.)
Adjunct faculty. (Often not the most desirable type of job for a career, as opposed to a side job for someone already in some other career whose experience makes him/her a useful instructor for a special topic.)
High school teacher.
Industry.
For math PhDs, the last option (industry) may offer more options than for some other subjects, since finance, computing, and other industries looking for those skilled at quantitative and logical thinking may be willing to hire them.
@mathprof63, I did see those breakdowns but there was not much comparative data vs 2003. So was trying to get info on the longitudinal changes.
@igloo, the pure math crowd is a special crowd. I don’t think there is anything else that will make them happy so they gotta do what they gotta do. Good news is they are more employable in ancillary fields than most of the other fields. DS is looking at it as “they pay me to do math for 5 years so what’s not to like?”
Yes, that just about sums up the mindset. Aspiring grad students may want to read “the Professor is In” by Karen Kelsky. A lot of timely advice about what academia is looking for nowadays. I can tell you that in math, many colleges look for new PhD’s who are capable of 1) using technology in math teaching 2) able to teach a wide variety of math courses at undergrad level 3) being a good colleague and open minded and easy to get along with 4) serving on committees etc. 5) keeping up with research - the level depends on the type of university.
Most openings are in smaller teaching colleges, not in the types of grad institutions where these students went to grad school. I went to large universities for both undergrad and grad, and it was frankly a culture shock to teach in a smaller teaching oriented college.
Most of our interviewees were never considered because of poor soft skills or arrogant attitude like “I am in pure math - I don’t need technology”. They all had the PhD, but really had no clue what we were looking for (Hint: read the ad carefully and research the school web site.)
@mathprof63 I am surprised that reaserach comes last (#5) in your list. I thought it was the top concern and everything else follows. My D is good at math and loves doing research but not geeky in the usual math sense. In fact, she abhors over the top geekyness. I think she will get ahead far in industry with her people skills. Not sure if PhD will be so useful in industry.
