My daughter got accepted to UCLA, UW, and Minn. for Mathematics. UCLA is ranked #7, Minn #17 and UW #25. Cost is a big factor so we assumed Minn would be top option (actually here now for a visit). Surprisingly got a scholarship offer from UCLA that puts it at 6k/yr more than Minn. If we could find a way to make it work, is UCLA worth it? She will need to go to graduate school (interested in research so MA or PhD). Does better ranked school matter that much for grad school or career?
Are you out of state for all of these colleges? UCLA cost of attendance for OOS is near $55,000 a year. Are you saying that UCLA would cost you $45,000 a year (Minnesota is $39,000 a year for OOS students).
If cost is a BIG factor…can you pay $45,000 a year?
Yes OOS for all. Minn with scholarship offer will be $30k/yr. UCLA will be $36k/yr. (waiting on UW offer) She will take out the max Staffford each year (5500 freshman) and we will pay the rest. Hope to be able to help her with loan at end if there aren’t a lot of unplanned costs. She has 10 APs so hoping might graduate 1-2 semesters early.
The rankings you gave are for the graduate program, and don’t apply to undergraduate programs. What matters more is access to the professors that make the programs so highly ranked. I’m not familiar with the math programs at these schools, but you should look to see if they offer honors courses, how easy it is to take graduate level courses, and opportunities to write a thesis or do undergraduate research. You should be careful though - I know that the University of Minnesota has an REU and seems like they advertise it on their website. However, this REU is one of the most competitive, and is open to students all over the country, so the opportunity is not as available to students at the school as it seems.
I think you also need to figure out the best place for an undergrad to study.
Interesting about UCLA, since CA just voted to discontinue financial aid to out of state students. Maybe that was need based only.
Thanks for the direction, we will do some more research and ask those questions. The Minn offer includes UROP (Undergrad Research Opportunities Program) for 1 year of $1700. She did an REU through MBI last summer at ASU. They flew her to Univ of Ohio for culmination and that is what got her hooked on research. It would make a big difference if she can’t get involved in research at UCLA as an undergrad.
The UC chieftains are really big on obfuscation, in pursuit of their goals.
The things math grad schools look for are: recommendations (3), GPA in math courses (usually a list of must have and should have courses), and math GRE (the subject test, commonly known as the toughest one). Having taken grad classes are a plus and she should have access to that at all of those schools. The profs will all likely have come from top PhD programs and all the programs are large enough that they will have profs in all the various branches of mathematics (analysis, algebra, geometry/topology etc). It is possible that she eventually becomes interested in a particular subfield (differential geometry for example) that one school may have offerings in that another does not, but there is no way to know that at this point. In other words, they will all be sufficient for generic graduate purposes.
Having said that, UCLA does have Terrance Tao, one of the most famous mathematicians in the world, but I doubt he would be accessible to an undergrad. They do have the largest department and seem to be interested in being a math power. UM and UW are more run of the mill departments. If she has aspirations to be a top mathematician, then the additional potential benefit of UCLA may be worth something. If not, probably won’t matter much.
Also, many students start off planning to major in math and end up elsewhere once they hit upper level math and decide it’s not for them. I would look at which school appeals to her most outside of math because there is a lot to a college experience other than your major.
FYI, terminal MA in math is not common for research based careers. There is very little benefit that one gets from an MA that one cannot get with BA/BS. MA is often a consolation prize for those who start a PhD program and then decide to not finish it, and only about 1/3 of those who start do actually finish.
Yes, out-of-state students can still get merit scholarships.
If one’s concerned about costs, one thing to consider is that respectable/elite PhD programs usually tend to be well-funded and only accept students to whom they can provide fellowship funding which covers tuition and even a living stipend.
If one receives an offer to a PhD program which offers little or no funding, it is best to not take the offer.
https://www.math.ucla.edu/~tao/ indicates that his recent teaching has been mostly graduate level courses (2xx in UCLA course numbering), though advanced undergraduates could certainly include graduate level courses. Of course, the types of graduate level courses taught are those in his specialty areas.
@ucbalumnus, it looks like he teaches parts of the Real Analysis sequence that first year grad students would take. Advanced UG students could certainly take this either as a Jr or a Sr so quite accessible in that way. The follow up question would be whether an UG (short of a math superstar) could do meaningful research with his group and get a good letter of rec out of it.
The best way to see how accessible a professor is IMO, is to see if they have listed undergraduate students that they’ve mentored somewhere. Terence Tao has done so, so the idea isn’t out of the question.
If cost matters a lot, then why not Barrett at ASU? It’s only an undergraduate degree.
The rankings you mentioned are for graduate programs.
My daughter is trans* and has not had good experiences at ASU or in Arizona generally. Besides top math programs we really looked at the Pride index for supportive campuses/locations.
Would the schools in question result in needing more debt than the federal direct loan limit ($5,500 first year, $6,500 second year, $7,500 each of the last two years)? In particular, parent loans or parent-cosigned student loans are usually not a good idea.
Agreed, no parent co-signed loans! She will take out the subsidized loans (16k for us) but hope to avoid the un subsidized if possible. Fortunately she’s a math major and knows her numbers for budgeting. Like any kid though, she will have to learn to manage money.
I know this is a little off topic…but there is NO University of Ohio. She either went to Ohio State University or Ohio University. Which one?
Your numbers at the schools are close…but it doesn’t sound like you have an extra $6000 a year …so how will you pay for UCLA?
Take a look at the credits offered for AP courses. UMN-TC is pretty generous (only need a 3 on the exams) - S got 33 credits for a similar number of AP courses so began with sophomore standing. If you can shave a year off that would be a huge cost saving.
All 3 universities are well regarded for math research. For an undergrad, you will need to find out if there will be specific opportunities for them. Since math research done by the faculty at these universities is usually not accessible to undergrads due to the amount of prerequisite knowledge, it is important to find out about programs especially for undergrads within the department. As a side note, many of the REU’s now give greater preference to undergrads from smaller institutions, so REU’s for students from research institutions will be very competitive.
Nowadays, grad schools in the top 20 will look for undergrad research experience in addition to GPA, advanced courses, GRE subject test etc. In math, it’s usually not a good idea to get a PhD from a university outside the top 40-50.
And many math majors change majors once they start the real analysis class or another proofs based course. Best to get to those types of classes ASAP. All 3 universities have a wide variety of majors for students with a strong math background should she later decide to switch.