UCLA parents: Student services cut

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<p>That is probably true for (nearly?) every parent on cc. But the UC’s admit a lot of underprepared students who need such help. UC offers remediation classes for a reason. And, there are plenty of high schools which barely offer College Prep courses, much less anything with an ‘honors’ label on it.</p>

<p>This may be another situation of penny-wise, pound foolish as some of these kids won’t pass their class and need to repeat it. Thus, the immediately move towards a 5-year graduation plan.</p>

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<p>Easy to say if you are wealthy/full pay. But the UCs purposely admit a lot of low income students , ~33% Pell Grantees at each campus. And these are the students who also come from low/barely performing high schools…</p>

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<p>The Regents and Legislature think so…</p>

<p>Not trying to raise a discussion on the policy itself, but IMO if UC purposely admits under-prepared students to a major research Uni, than UC has a (moral and ethical?) obligation to help them catch up and succeed.</p>

<p>I don’t think that admitting academically under-prepared students to UCLA or UCB is at all a good use of scarce resources. That’s what the community college system is intended to support, and at tremendously lower cost to both students and taxpayers. The UC system was designed to educate the top students in the state – and I’m pretty hard-pressed to consider students who need remediation or UCLA-funded tutoring as “top students” under any reasonable interpretation thereof.</p>

<p>And there were lots of students on Pell grants or work-study back in the day, so I don’t think that is the explanation. I can’t really remember that whether a kid was or wasn’t on a Pell grant (I think these were called BEOG back then) or other financial aid as being at all indicative of their academic preparation.</p>

<p>Like I posted earlier, arabrab, UC IS admitting such students and such practice will continue (bcos the Regents and Legislature believe it to be good policy). So the question then becomes whether or not UC should support them once they matriculate. I would argue that UC has an obligation to so do.</p>

<p>I think that there have been other suggestions/comments here that are very valid. Let me address some of them.</p>

<p>Q. What are the statistics about Covel? How many people use the service and how often, and what other options are available?</p>

<p>Math/science:
Covel enrolls about 6,000 students annually in the math-science 10-week programs (that’s non-unique- for instance if a student enrolls in multiple courses, they are counted twice. But that’s not very common).
Writing/composition/ESL:
About 2,000 students annually in one-on-one writing help sessions.
Athletics:
About 2,400 enrolled annually.</p>

<p>AAP( minority students) consists of about 6,000 students; these students have separate AAP tutoring.</p>

<p>Total undergraduate enrollment is about 24,000. When you consider that we are focusing on the introductory classes (say, 1st and 2nd years), and that student-athletes and AAP students are not part of the available pool, Covel reaches a startling percentage of students annually. Roughly, let’s say of the 8,000 students we meet, 4,000 of those are non-unique repeats- we still enroll 4,000 of 16,000 undergrads, and of those if half of those are 1st and 2nd years, that brings it to closer to 4,000 of 8,000 undergrads.</p>

<p>Covel offers weekly sessions in these courses (so 10 sessions per quarter, 1/week):
Chemistry 14A, 14B, 14C, 14D, 20A, 20B, 30A, 30B, 153A
Life Sciences 1, 2, 3, 4
Mathematics 1, 3A, 3B, 3C, 31A, 31B, 32A
Physics 6A, 6B, 1A, 1B
Attendance is mandatory once you sign up after the 3rd week (to prevent people from abusing the system, and to ensure maximum benefit). </p>

<p>Other options: Office hours (which have those problems I’ve talked about earlier), private tutoring. There’s a student math center, which sounds better than it is- it’s basically a large office hour. There’s the Writing Success Program- which consists of 6 people and is nowhere near big enough to meet demand (in 2008-2009, the Composition portion of Covel was cut, and there was a 2-week waiting list to meet with anyone for the Writing Success Program- not really doable on the quarter system). Independent study groups are probably the best option, and not everyone can do that (what if you commute? what if you are an incoming freshman and don’t know anyone?)</p>

<p>Q. My child doesn’t need tutoring, why does yours?
A. I don’t think I ever told my father about enrolling in tutoring sessions. Like I said, it’s not necessarily a remedial service, although in some cases it can be. It’s entirely possible your child enrolled and didn’t mention it, or that your student didn’t enroll at all. In either case, having the option open for better understanding a subject remains valid. In the case where Covel is remedial, then the need for a free service is more obvious.</p>

<p>Q. Why don’t students pay for it?
A. We haven’t been offered the option. Some schools do use student fees to pay for it, but UCLA students were not given the option to vote on it, etc. Even more, the administration did not inform Covel Peer Learning staff or student employees that the program was closing until March- at a point where we were already beginning the hiring/recruitment process for the next year. This seriously limits the options in terms of debate or discussion- we haven’t been allowed to come to the table.</p>

<p>Q. Why don’t you just start study groups instead?
A. I suspect many people will do that. But keep in mind the maximal benefit of peer learning is in the first few quarters of UCLA, before most students have had a chance to form networks or meet other students. The quarter system operates fast- usually there’s an exam in the 3rd or 4th week of school, fall quarter freshman year! But peer learning offers more advantages in that student leaders have taken the class beforehand and often have facilitated that course several times before- they’re more familiar and comfortable with the material than a student taking the class, and they’re also more approachable and available than a TA or professor. Also, Covel offers a place for study groups to form- people meet other people in session and form groups outside session to review. It also provides a space for that kind of outside study. Class lectures and discussions are pretty big- most people don’t meet other study partners there.</p>

<p>Q. My CC doesn’t have this program. Why does UCLA need it?
A. CC’s do not have a research emphasis in science and math faculty, whereas UCLA does. Often many teaching professors are placed under the additional pressure of research and grant application deadlines, conferences in different countries, etc. In my core science classes, I had about 6-8 full-time research professors, and a few of them had limited interest in working with undergraduates.</p>

<p>Q. Why not open a private tutoring program to fill the gap?
A. Most student tutors don’t work only for the money, although it certainly is how we can afford to spend so much time prepping for sessions. In my case, it’s irrelevant- I’m graduating and moving to the other side of the country. But I do feel very strongly that there’s a group of students who are not being served here who need it, especially because this is a public and not a private school. Private tutoring usually costs about 20$/session at minimum. Do most students have 200$ extra to spend per quarter? And of course, this of course will disproportionately affect those who cannot afford private tutoring- other people will have the service and they will not.</p>

<p>“If you can’t get UCLA to pay for it, then students will have to pay by having their tuition or student fees increased. If you want it that badly, pay for it. Don’t ask the state for more money, we’re broke.”</p>

<p>Do you know why the state is broke? Because nobody wants to pay taxes. The percentage of their income that people pay to the state has actually dropped from 11.8% in 1977 to 10.6% in 2009.
[The</a> Tax Foundation - State and Local Tax Burdens: All States, One Year, 1977 - 2009](<a href=“Tax Data | Tax Foundation, Your #1 Resource for Tax Data & Research”>Tax Data | Tax Foundation, Your #1 Resource for Tax Data & Research)</p>

<p>Meanwhile, everyone complains about higher taxes but the federal rate has stayed fairly stagnant for most people, while dropping drastically for the highest earners:
[Historical</a> Tax Rates by Income Group [NYTimes] ? VisualizingEconomics](<a href=“http://visualizingeconomics.com/2007/11/03/nytimes-historical-tax-rates-by-income-group/]Historical”>http://visualizingeconomics.com/2007/11/03/nytimes-historical-tax-rates-by-income-group/)</p>

<p>Everyone in your generation says that we have to slash spending because we can’t leave our children with debt, but by doing so you deny your children the very services and amenities that your parents paid for you to have when you were in college.</p>

<p>Oh, and of course, the biggest question:
Q. What do I think should be cut instead?</p>

<p>A. I don’t profess to know a lot about the ins and outs of university financing. After all, I’m just one more graduate of the UC system! But what I do know is that in this campaign I’ve amassed three or four academic hierarchy charts for UCLA, with ten to twenty people on each of them. They each make in the 200,000$+ range annually (look it up on Sac Bee). They all have a personal assistant. And this is purely administrative for the university- departmental chairs aren’t on there, for instance. You could fund Covel for all students indefinitely for a single one of their salaries.
Pauley Pavilion’s renovation is costing UCLA 185 million dollars. Sure, it will earn that money back- Athletics is lucrative- but not for a while, maybe decades. I can’t help but notice that the cost is 1000X the 185,000$ annual budget of Covel.
But some people will argue that that was planned before the recession began, and so now we have to finish it. But look at the proposed hotel Chancellor Block was going to build on the faculty center- that got canceled, sure. But as of the beginning of this month, UCLA was planning on spending 160 million dollars to build it, if the Academic Senate hadn’t nixed it as reported April 5th in the Daily Bruin.
I can only conclude that peer learning is not a high priority.</p>

<p>I don’t care what the legislature wants, this state is broke and can’t afford these luxuries unless the students and their parents want to pay for it or can convince the university to redirect their funds. I am not rich and cannot afford to have my taxes go up to pay for things we can’t afford. If you detect that I am angry about the bankrupt condition of Ca. and the entitled attitude people have here, you’re right. Everyone wants someone else to pay for the voluminous services they need.</p>

<p>To the poster above: Are you kidding me! Ca. is the second highest taxed state in USA.</p>

<p>My D has used tutoring at her college and so have a number of her classmates. We always advise someone who posts on CC who is having trouble with a class to get tutoring. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that anyone who needs “UCLA-funded tutoring” belongs in a community college setting.</p>

<p>But you have to cut the budget somewhere, everywhere…tutoring will continue–either parents will pay for a private tutor or it will be done on a free basis with student volunteers. </p>

<p>I suspect that the legislature has found it cheaper to provide academic help at the college level to smart, motivated students from low income neighborhoods with crappy schools than it is to try to fix the crappy schools for everyone…</p>

<p>The state is broke because it’s not run well. See link below. People always blame it on Prop 13.
[State</a> agencies lent employees millions without being repaid, officials say | PolitiCal | Los Angeles Times](<a href=“Archive blogs”>State agencies lent employees millions without being repaid, officials say)
I agree with bluebayou, I think UCs should admit students based on stats like they did years ago or back when I was in college. Forget all these hollistics admissions and maybe we don’t need this peer tutoring.</p>

<p>Time to get real- there should be no remediation at any UC- period. When UCLA/UCB are turning away 4.5 2300 SAT/35 ACT - Don’t stuff the most competitive campus’ will students who need remediation or pre-set study groups. Top students should not need this now and they did not need it in the 70’s-80’s or most of the 90’s. Utopia thinking can not be sustained in hard economic times. If you need remediation for any reason, CC and in some cases CSU is there for the students who really want it. If the middle class has the grades but can’t get in to UC, and CC and CSU is good enough for them, then CC and CSU must be good enough for anyone who needs remediation.When they are competitive with the students at UCLA/UCB- then transfer in as a Junior. That is what CC was created for. </p>

<p>You have to go get your education in College, it’s not spooned up like high school, nor should it be. You think employers are going to hire people who can’t do the job, no matter what their economic background? Of course not. </p>

<p>Just because something has been done a certain way, does not mean it is still effective in the present time. NO MORE REMEDIATION AT THE UC LEVEL.</p>

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<p>Where did you get these numbers? 2,400 athletes enrolled sounds way way too high.</p>

<p>I work for Covel Peer Learning and we had 2,409 student-athlete sessions in 2009-10, 2,393 in 2008-9, and 2133 in 2007-8.
Again, these figures are nonunique. In the case of the student figures, it’s less important because few students are able to enroll in multiple peer learning sessions per quarter. But student-athlete enrollment in multiple sessions is much more common.
And once again, there is not a conflict of interest here- I was not planning on continuing my employment past graduation and I graduate this June. </p>

<p>Re the sense of entitlement: I do think that’s a serious issue we as students need to address. What is important and what is just entitled moaning?
I don’t think it’s an irrelevant or unnecessary service, for one, and I think it probably saves UCLA money in the long term (again, every student that takes 5 yrs to graduate= cost for the university). Student hires are cheap! TAs, lecturers, and professors are expensive.
Also, many other major state universities in the country think it’s important- University of Michigan spends 200,000$ annually, and U of Washington, Seattle spends 350,000$ annually. Of the other UCs, Cal spends 140,000$ annually, and all the other UCs each have similar programs.
But most importantly, when did learning services become extraneous? It’s not hand-holding- these services aren’t for all four years, for every class, for example. But it’s a bridge for people who aren’t up to college level academics, including very talented students who simply did not have access to better teaching in high school.</p>

<p>“To the poster above: Are you kidding me! Ca. is the second highest taxed state in USA.”
Sixth. Goodness, did you even visit the site I posted? It’s right there on The Tax Foundation’s website, third column in the chart. Granted, this is from 2009, but I can’t find 2010 data. </p>

<p>“The state is broke because it’s not run well. See link below. People always blame it on Prop 13.”
The state budget deficit is $25.4 billion. According to the article you posted, $13.3 million is uncollected in advances to public employees. This is 0.0524% of the state budget deficit.</p>

<p>“Time to get real- there should be no remediation at any UC- period. When UCLA/UCB are turning away 4.5 2300 SAT/35 ACT”
Do you have any evidence of this? Anecdotal is fine, but simply saying this isn’t valid evidence, just acrid diatribe.</p>

<p>This might be a personal idiosyncrasy I have as a scientist, but cite sources if you’re going to make a statement.</p>

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<p>Ok. 2,400 student-athlete sessions is much different from 2,400 athletes enrolled. UCLA offers 22 different sports, and adding all rosters together wouldn’t come close to even half that number in athletes.</p>

<p>I went to their website and here are the facts. California ranks 49th in the Tax Foundation’s State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on property, including residential and commercial property. California’s top individual income tax rate is third-highest in the nation and the sales tax rate is highest in the nation. If these taxes are not high enough for you, please feel free to voluntarily pay more taxes. Trust me - the state won’t return the money. </p>

<p>You said it yourself, the state budget deficit is $25 billion. There is no money to pay for these type of things, no matter what you think is desirable. I’ll tell you where you can find some money: make it so students of divorced parents have to include the income of both parents when determining financial aid. I know a number of kids who have have a very rich parent and are able to go to a UC school for very little money. There is no way you can get away with these shenanigans at any private school. If your telling me that I should pay for remediation services for one of these students, you will not be surprised to hear a strong response from me.</p>

<p>Even very good students can benefit from tutoring from time-to-time. For example, UChicago’s Little Red School House writing program provides writing tutors for first years and even grad students ([University</a> of Chicago Writing Program: Home](<a href=“http://writing-program.uchicago.edu/]University”>http://writing-program.uchicago.edu/)). Sometimes really good students can learn to be really great students with a little tutoring. It is worth the investment. I’m sure there are other places where money could be saved.</p>

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<p>This is just one example that costs .0524% of the state budget deficit. But if you look deeper there are 10,000 ways state employees are looting the system. Geez!
More link about waste
<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/19/local/la-me-0119-waste-20110119[/url]”>http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/19/local/la-me-0119-waste-20110119&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I really think Idad’s comment is very insightful. I consider myself a strong student and still found peer work to be incredibly helpful in really helping me to understand the fundamentals. I’ll have that information for the rest of my academic career and after. </p>

<p>I really do not mean to make this thread to be politicized. To me, this is very clear-cut. The school cut a large and important service which cost a relatively small amount of money. In response to student outcry, they promised to reestablish two new centers filling the same duties a single center did before, only with twice the administrative overhead and half the efficacy (no peer learning, but only office hours). Why did they do this? So that they could reroute the funding for this program through the already overburdened individual departments. This measure actually wastes a huge amount of taxpayer money. The two centers will cost more, but there will not be an improvement in services provided; in fact, the quality of services will likely severely decline Meanwhile, you lose out on a chance to employ students as well as get students involved in their own learning.
Whether or not you think a peer learning center is an important component of a university, it is easy to agree that the above actions don’t make any sense. As parents and taxpayers, you can write Dean Smith and let her know that you don’t appreciate her using your money in this illogical way (<a href=“mailto:judis@college.ucla.edu”>judis@college.ucla.edu</a>).</p>

<p>Lastly, I am very fond of crunching the numbers, and I estimate that Covel currently saves 20,000$ annually by sharing student tutors with Athletics. Both Athletics and Covel save because training and preparation paid hours are split between the two programs, but the tutor is only trained once (to work in both programs). Athletics also enjoys a similar savings, but again, Athletics is independently funded so it doesn’t really need to save that 20,000$. The college in essence added 20,000$ and doubled facility and administrative costs to the taxpayer’s bill. This estimate does not include initial training costs, either.</p>

<p>Again, all the enrollment figures I cited earlier are non-unique. My apologies if that was confusing to you, Bay. Again, for the most pertinent figures (math/science and composition), the distinction is less important than in Athletics figures as extremely few students in the former are doubly enrolled.</p>

<p>Lastly, I’d like to contrast the 185,000$ annually to the 165 million dollar proposed overhaul of the Faculty Center at UCLA. This is not to say that 185,000$ is a small amount of money- it’s not. But almost every cent of that money was going back to students, with very, very little waste. Our boss (who was laid off, by the way), has been repeatedly cited to me as a model of fiscal restraint and planning, even by administrators! Why isn’t UCLA’s administration choosing to reward this kind of financial prudence? Why are they instead choosing to spend even more money on even less substance? I asked Judi Smith those questions, and she wouldn’t answer me directly; I am hoping she will listen to you as parents.</p>

<p>Tutoring in subjects in which the large part of students is weak (writing), or in subjects that are not formally taught (C, C++ programming,…) is justified. However tutoring in subjects that are formally taught is not very justified. The classes that Covel covers fall in this later category:</p>

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