UIUC vs JHU vs UMich vs UMD

Hi,

I have been accepted into the computer science program at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign as a James scholar (some honors thing), Johns Hopkins University as a Bloomberg scholar (nothing super special), the University of Michigan’s LSA college, and the University of Maryland’s honors college.

I have been waitlisted at Stanford, Columbia, Rice, and Northwestern. I am thinking about accepting the Stanford waitlist, maybe accepting the Columbia waitlist, and probably turning down the Rice and Northwestern waitlists. I know the Stanford waitlist is a long shot, but if I do get accepted off it, I will be going there with certainty, obviously.

I don’t know the chances for the Columbia waitlist, but I heard they’re not great. I’m not super excited about Columbia, so that’s why I’m not certainly accepting the waitlist. I wasn’t super excited about Rice and Northwestern in the first place, and I think I have enough real offers to turn those waitlist offers down.

I am trying to decide which university to attend. I will be enrolled in Air Force ROTC with a type 1 scholarship (full tuition + a bit more). Therefore, I’m not focused on the cost of college for my selection (I’m aware of room and board expenses).

My major will certainly be computer science. I will not and cannot change it. My main interest is in computer security, and UMD and JHU are near one of the hot spots for that field. The ACES honors program at UMD is great for computer security.

All of the options are pretty good to me, but I can obviously only pick one. UIUC has a top 5 program in CS, UMich and UMD are top 15, and JHU is 28th. However, JHU is a top 10 university nationally and everyone seemed to be excited when I finally mentioned it, even though it’s ranked worse than the others in my major.

All but JHU have an AFROTC detachment at the actual university. If I go to JHU, I have to go to a detachment at UMD. It would be easier to have the detachment at the university, but I have to talk to someone at JHU to find out how hard it would be to go to UMD’s detachment.

Academics will be the most important thing for me at college, but I don’t need a super high GPA for medical school or graduate school. I’m not interested in joining a frat, but I would want to have some social life by having friends in other clubs or whatnot.

I have a job lined up for me after college as an officer in the Air Force, so I’m not that worried about which college has the best job prospects after graduation. The Air Force doesn’t care what school I go to at all. Furthermore, my field of computer security doesn’t place much of an emphasis on what school I go to either after I leave the Air Force.

I have yet to visit any of the schools, but I hope to do so soon. I am from Hawaii, so it’s very difficult and expensive to visit. I think I have to visit to be certain of my choice, but I want to hear from others first.

Thank you.

I can’t imagine commuting from JHU to UMD a few days per week. UMD has an amazing AFROTC detachment and top computer science program. You should schedule an overnight visit and stay with a cadet if you can travel there.

Hi, my son is in the same boat. He has been accepted by JHU, UIUC and GA Tech for CS major. I am curious Whether you made up your mind. I am leaning towards JHU since it is smaller in size.

In general, I can tell you that the benefits of a smaller private school like Hopkins will primarily revolve around resources per capita, which allows for early research opportunities, smaller classes, individual attention for academic and career advising and potential networking benefits.

Hopkins R&D expenditures and its heavily military-funded APL create unparalleled opportunities for your future profession. At the same time, though, you’ll see that second behind Hopkins in annual research spending (which one can translate to more numerous and quality undergrad research opportunities and a potential career down the road, in general) is none other than UMich (http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/colleges-with-highest-research-and-development-expenditures/). Notice though that it is nearly a 2:1 difference in spending and nearly 4:1 difference in engineering R&D spending. Nonetheless, while there seems to be plenty of money going around at both schools, also keep in mind Hopkins has about 6000 undergrads (although 15,000 grads as well, most on other campuses) to UMich’s 28,000 undergrads. While this might mean a smaller piece of pie per person in terms of undergrad research opportunities at UMich (and starting early in research is huge if you want to get your name on quality publications and actually learn skills and network in labs), your success more importantly depends on how aggressive you are at seeking those opportunities out, etc. The same goes for advising and educational resources. Hopkins has more resources per person to probably (probably, I don’t know the details on these other schools) provide more individualized attention per student, provide better faculty support, smaller class sizes, etc. But again, if you are a hardworking and active student then you may not need these benefits to reach the same level of success at these larger state schools.

Basically, the higher price tag (and it normally is significant) is buying you more resources if you have questions, need help or want more opportunities. While that sounds nice, that by no means suggests that you can’t work hard on your own and accomplish just as much at UMich/UIUC/UMD, which are all awesome state school. While I admit I’m not familiar with these programs, I am very familiar with UC San Diego and UCLA. Dozens of my friends went for undergrad to these stellar state schools and constantly complained about the difficulties in securing research their freshman or sophomore years (it was very competitive, and even then, sometimes the “research” consisted of grunt work) and complained of non-existent academic and career advising. Given that all three of these schools are large, research focused, and awesome schools makes me think that large stellar state schools will have similar expectations that students need to fend for themselves to a large extent. On the other hand, I sent a single email out to an NIH lab my freshman year and was interning there a month later getting multiple publications over the next four years. Again, this is by no means dooming since many students from UCLA and UCSD are very successful, but it seems to me that they needed to be more self-reliant and hardworking to achieve that success. You definitely should talk to CS students and grads at these schools and get their thoughts on research opportunities (did they start freshman year?), class size, facilities, etc.

When it comes to the sciences, research experience as an undergrad is huge. You are addressing real world problems, learning marketable skills, networking for a potential career and reinforcing what you learn in the classroom. Given that the market is inundated with engineering majors, research experiences (and meaningful ones that ideally involve years in the same lab doing quality stuff) are key to distinguishing yourself and getting a quality job out of college (less of a concern for you in the immediate future, but still vastly beneficial to have meaningful experiences). Hopkins is America’s first research university, and it has maintained its founding vision. It heavily emphasizes, often requires, research experiences for its students, and even encourages independent research with 46 annual $2,500 PURA research grants that you can qualify for even as a freshman. Not very many schools give out $2,500 research grants with limited oversight to unproven freshman based on a small research grant proposal (it is not that competitive or difficult, honestly). Hopkins does put its money (your money?) where its mouth is. http://web.jhu.edu/administration/provost/awards/pura/index.html. I know Hopkins also provides $10,000 Woodrow Wilson Fellowships and $3,000 DURA research grants to its Arts and Sciences students, but I’m unfamiliar with what other grants undergrad Engineering majors can apply for. Nonetheless, it goes to show that Hopkins is committed to the undergrad research experience.

I wouldn’t get too hung up on rankings since (and I’m assuming you’re referencing US News) these program rankings are solely based on surveys sent out to “peers” in the CS field, which includes department heads, faculty, etc. This undoubtedly does have value, but I wouldn’t say that #1 is necessarily better than #10 just based on this ranking approach. Notice here that only 18% of people receiving the CS ranking survey even replied, and you should be wary of findings based on people’s opinion, that’s hardly the strongest metric of performance. Was this ranking survey delivered a week after a mass-mailing by MIT was sent out or a big publication by Stanford came out? People can be easily influenced and often irrational, even PhDs. http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/science-schools-methodology

Driving to UMd for AFROTC is a bummer, but I wouldn’t consider that a deal breaker. It’s a 45-minute drive that you would need to make once a week (JHU worked it out so you don’t have to go multiple times a week). You would probably need to get a car, otherwise it would take about 2 hours to get there via public transportation. If you do go to JHU, students are always selling vehicles upon graduation, so you should be able to find a reasonable deal. Carpooling to split costs and driving time sounds like a great idea if you decide to do this.

Also, JHU recently finished building Malone Hall, a building solely focused on integrative and collaborative medical research combining CS with engineering and medicine. Dedicating and designing a whole buildings to encourage cross-disciplinary research is a newer concept and shows the school’s commitment to innovative and interprofessional research. Always look to see where an institution is spending its money to determine its focus and priorities. Anyone can talk, but until you spend the money, it’s only words. The fact that this building is on the undergrad campus and not a graduate campus is also telling, and hints to the opportunities you can take advantage of as an undergrad.

Lastly, the same three rumors that come up again and again are that Baltimore is a war zone, people at Hopkins don’t have social lives and that Hopkins is a cutthroat premed environment. Honestly, none of these are true, so make sure you speak with actual students when making this important decision and not just rumors or assumed stereotypes. Hopkins does have many premeds (probably about 30-40%), but being a premed is not a major, there are History of Art majors who are premed, so it definitely is not a homogenous bunch and (in my opinion) it doesn’t take away from the diversity of the student body. It surprises people to know that (often) some of the top ten most popular majors on campus include International Relations (often the second most popular major, and a feeder into the well-respected DC-based SAIS program), English, Writing Seminars (a creative writing major), Economics, and History. Additionally, the Classics, French, and History of Art departments, while small, are very well-respected academically.

Here are some previous threads where common JHU misconceptions are addressed:

Safety: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/johns-hopkins-university/1821701-questions-about-baltimore.html#latest

Social Life/School Pride/Greek Life/Food: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/johns-hopkins-university/1878658-johns-hopkins-vs-cornell.html#latest

Hope this helps!

NixonDenier, when it comes to resources and research opportunities, Michigan and JHU are similar. Michigan may be twice bigger than JHU, but it also has an endowment and faculty that is three times larger than JHU. So JHU does not offer students more resources.

Total students:
JHU 21,000
Michigan 43,000

Endowment
JHU $3.5 billion ($167,000/student)
Michigan $10 billion ($235,000/student)

Engineering students:
Whiting School of Engineering 3,400
Michigan CoE 9,000

Engineering faculty:
Whiting School of Engineering 250 (14:1)
Michigan College of Engineering 500 (18:1)

School of Engineering endowment:
Whiting School of Engineering $130 million ($38,000/student)
Michigan CoE $400 million ($44,000/student)

The 4:1 engineering research spending advantage over Michigan you list above is very suspicious. I would like to know how JHU came up with that number. MIT, as one may suspect, has the largest Engineering research budget in the US by a large margin, and their’s is $465 million. I doubt JHU’s Engineering research spending is double that of MIT. Let me put it another way, Engineering rankings are almost entirely proportional to research spending. If Whiting spent $860 million on engineering research, it would be far and way the best Engineering school in the nation…period. It would not even be debatable. No other university, including MIT and Stanford combined, would come close to it. It would take MIT, Cal and Stanford combined to match JHU’s Engineering research budget. Yet Whiting is seldom considered a top ten school of Engineering, BME notwithstanding.

Perhaps the $860 million figure includes all STEM research, including BME/Biotech/Medical research. The figures reported by JHU in official rankings, such as the US News graduate rankings, the Whiting School of Engineering spent $113 million in research last year. That seems a lot more realistic than the $860 million listed in your link above. Michigan’s Engineering research budget last year was $265 million (third largest among engineering programs after MIT and TAMU).

I am not sure about JHU, but Michigan has the MRC and UROP, both of which connect incoming Freshmen with faculty, usually one-on-one, from the moment they step on campus. The vast majority of incoming freshmen who request joining the MRC or UROP are assigned to a research area they are interested in.

Thank you for your input and for speaking on behalf of UMich. Always good to balance things out and offer an alternative perspective. I did agree that both are awesome schools and that you would get a phenomenal education at both. I will, however, address my facts (and defend my honor, ha).

The stats I posted on JHU’s annual R&D expenditure are accurate. They truly are spending, as an institution, nearly a billion dollars more than the next highest school, UMich. This is a huge number, and while that should raise eyebrows, it shouldn’t be suspicious since it can be easily confirmed by multiple sources going back for years simply by Googling: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/johns-hopkins-again-tops-in-university-research-spending/2013/12/09/6bc681ca-60eb-11e3-bf45-61f69f54fc5f_story.html

There are of course caveats when looking at an institution’s R&D spending versus an individual college’s expenditure, which you seemed to be confusing. It is true that the JHU School of Engineering itself is only reporting $113 million in R&D and not the $860 million reported in the previously posted link, which would be significantly more than any other engineering school in the U.S. The difference is because there are many other JHU programs conducting engineering research beyond the engineering college. These include organizations like the Applied Physics Lab (APL, which I mentioned before) and the Space Telescope Science Institute. This of course is why numbers are misleading and never paint the full picture. I felt it was still accurate to consider all institutional funding as opposed to just one college’s since undergrads still benefit from these other organizations. The Space Telescope Institute is connected to the undergrad campus and they offer programs and research internships to undergrad students to benefit from. APL, which spends over a billion dollars on research each year, is primarily the reason why Hopkins is spending so much more than any other school. APL is receiving the bulk of its money from the military for research including, to the dismay of some, significant research on drones and drone warfare: http://www.jhunewsletter.com/2014/01/30/hopkins-must-end-unethical-involvement-in-drone-research-90556/ While undergrads do conduct research here (I attended a research symposium presentation by a student who had a paid summer internship here, and, honestly, it was pretty boring since all the data was redacted), APL is about a 40-minute drive away from the undergrad campus, which of course is a huge barrier to students accessing those funds and reaping the benefits. This is why numbers on their own can be misleading. I, however, know friends who made the drive to APL 2-3 times a week, and I too was working in a JHU/NIH lab for four years that was about a 30-40 minute shuttle ride away (really two shuttles) on the Bayview Campus, so I know students can feasibly access these resources, though there are significant barriers for some opportunities. Again, the research opportunities I benefited from would not be associated with the college I attended, but may have been included in institutional spending (or maybe not at all since it was a joint program with the NIH - I’m not sure).

While it is clear (for me at least) that Hopkins does have a better faculty:student ratio and R&D spending/student than UMich, is it a significant difference to merit choosing one school over the other? For the hard-working go-getter, probably not. Additionally, how do all the caveats (such as the APL being 40 minutes away from the Homewood campus) affect these broad numbers in the context of what is useful for an undergrad? It’s hard to say unless we really delve into it (which I won’t).

Looking at endowment, as you brought up, is another way to assess resources available to students. It is clear that as a whole and per student, UMich does have a larger endowment. But again, beyond showing the numbers, we need to discuss context. Endowments are a fickle thing without knowing the breakdown of how the endowment is being used. I found an interesting article regarding Duke students complaining that despite their school having an endowment twice the size of Hopkins (and about half the number of students as Hopkins) that tuition cost is slightly lower at Hopkins than Duke (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2015/09/university-need-based-aid-still-limited-by-7-billion-endowment). This goes to show that an undergrad’s benefits from an endowment have just as much to do with (or more to do with) the mission and values of the endowment as it does with the figure itself. It’s possible that Duke has higher tuition costs because it truly is spending more per student, or, maybe Duke isn’t using its endowment to lower costs for students as significantly as JHU has been. Again, without more information and context it is very difficult to say one way or another how these resources are impacting students, specifically undergrads.

Why isn’t JHU better regarded for more of its engineering programs when it is spending more on engineering research annually than MIT, Cal, and Stanford combined for decades? I don’t know. I believe you’re referring to the U.S. News program ranking which is solely based on a survey completed by individuals in the engineering field whose opinion U.S. News values. Would the program ranking approach better help students select an engineering program if faculty ratio, endowment, R&D budget, number and quality of research papers published by faculty and/or students, etc. were instead considered? Probably. Would that mean the rankings would alter significantly? Possibly.

I ended up choosing UIUC. They have a great computer science program, excellent teachers and facilities, many opportunities, lots of CS students (better for a more niche field I like), a nice campus, and a solid housing hall. I’ve talked to a lot of incoming and current students and worked with them on a competition recently. They were all awesome people who I would love spending time with in person. I don’t think you can go wrong with any option. The AFROTC situation at JHU was bad enough for me to mostly exclude it. It was between Michigan and UIUC mostly toward the end, but Michigan didn’t have a compelling enough reason for me to go, although I’m sure I would have joined my time there as well.

“It is true that the JHU School of Engineering itself is only reporting $113 million in R&D and not the $860 million reported in the previously posted link, which would be significantly more than any other engineering school in the U.S…”

" MIT, as one may suspect, has the largest Engineering research budget in the US by a large margin, and their’s is $465 million."

Which sentence doesn’t make sense?

All I’m saying is that engineering research is going on at more than just the JHU School of Engineering. It is going on at other JHU institutions like the APL and Space Telescope Institute which is accounted for in institutional/university spending but not by the School of Engineering. Hopefully that clarifies. This is why it is helpful to look at total institutional R&D spending (and it’s breakdown) rather than just how much any one school of a university is reporting.