UK vs US undergraduate choice for US law school goals

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You guys are conflating “school name” with the actual educational experience a student gets at different schools.

MIT used to publish a very handy and illuminating chart showing GPA and LSAT scores (nothing else) of its law school applicants and where they got admitted. It was very apparent that MIT grads benefited from the “MIT has grade deflation” reputation. Even accounting for “splitters” (law school-ese for people who have a huge disparity between grades and LSAT scores), MIT grads at every GPA level were doing better in law school admissions than the law schools overall stats would suggest. And in some cases- MUCH better.

But this has nothing to do with the “name” and everything to do with the actual education, pedagogy, and rigor of what students at MIT are actually doing for four years. And I’ll hazard a guess that this works at most undergrad institutions where graduating with a perfect GPA is rare, and also have an extensive core (so the law school hopefuls can’t “protect” their GPA by avoiding classes they’ll know they’ll struggle in.)

CC likes to claim that all colleges are the same, a kid can go anywhere from everywhere, etc. And yes, a kid CAN go anywhere from everywhere, but all colleges are NOT the same and pretending that they are is unfair to the students who post here looking for advice. Law school adcoms are looking at actual transcripts in addition to looking at GPA and LSAT scores. Phoning it in as an undergrad may (or may not) get you in to law school with the right LSAT score, but getting OUT of law school if you haven’t learned to write, think, analyze, and work your %^& off will be a challenge.

OP- why not go to college in the US and spend a semester in the UK? That will scratch the itch without complicating your law school aspirations.

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You need to actually know the total frequency of success for people with comparable LSATs and comparable interests in law schools.

Yes, you would.

Say for a certain type of potential applicant, choosing to attend Undergrad A would double their future chances of admissions to a T14 law school as compared to Undergrad B.

Would this mean at T14 law schools, there would be NO students from Undergrad B?

Of course not. There would just be about half as many per capita, once you controlled for other relevant factors.

Again, I recognize we are not able to really do the controls we need. But we also are not just starting with disparities like twice as many. In the example I gave, the raw frequency of Amherst students attending top law schools is TWENTY-FOUR times the raw frequency of Ohio State students attending. It is entirely possible, therefore, that even after controlling for everything else, we’d still find an implied probability disparity of twice, or indeed more.

And again, this doesn’t mean we would expect no Ohio State students at top law schools. We would just expect it to be a lot less per capita. Which is exactly what we see.

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Just to be clear, I wasn’t suggesting it was merely a school name effect.

I used the term “value added”, and that was meant to broadly include any possible underlying cause of such an effect.

Again, I can’t quite prove this, but I definitely believe it . . . one of the things that came out of the study I referenced was that a lot of Liberal Arts Colleges are doing quite well in terms of law school placement, definitely better than LSATs alone could explain. Undoubtedly some of that is self-selection again, but I personally believe that isn’t the whole story either. Fundamentally, the legal profession is a reading and writing profession, and the most selective law schools are interested in strong readers and writers as well. And I think many LACs properly have a reputation for doing a good job producing strong readers and writers, not just because they started that way after HS, but also because of actual value added during undergrad.

Interestingly, MIT is much more in that same category than many people seem to realize. They take what they call their HASS requirements very seriously, and I think also have a well-earned reputation for developing the reading and writing abilities of their students.

So yes, I entirely agree with you that assuming it is true MIT applicants are getting admitted at higher rates to very selective law schools than their GPA/LSAT combinations alone can explain–and I am quite sure that is in fact true–it isn’t really because of the letters on their sweatshirt per se. It is because law schools know that MIT students meeting those adjusted GPA requirements are still good bets to do well in law school and indeed well in the law, and that is based on their understanding of what sort of relevant education those MIT students have actually received.

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Are you sure ?

Many law firms, public interest firms, state government agencies, and federal government agencies offer internships to undergraduate students in the US. Some are paid and some are unpaid. The duties / assignments will be primarily administrative, but many–especially at public interest agencies–involve research.

The formal 2 year paralegal programs are for recent college graduates.

Especially valued at many prosecutors’ offices and public interest agencies are undergraduate interns with a high level of proficiency in a foreign language (such as Spanish) to assist in interviewing witnesses, reading witness statements written in a foreign language, and, possibly, reviewing other documents written in a foreign language.

There are opportunities at many federal government offices including at the Supreme Court of the United States.

Here is an example: U.S. Trustee Program | Paralegal Internship

Also, DLA Piper has a formal internship program open to undergraduates.

OP: There are a lot of US law firms with an office in London. Not sure how many, but one source listed 106 major US law firms with offices in London. Contact these firms if interested in an internship while still in undergraduate school.

Maybe some are thinking of Training Contracts in London law firms. Training Contracts are typically up to 2 years in length and, to the best of my knowledge, for law school graduates.

https://chambersstudent.co.uk/law-firm/types-of-law-firm/us-firms-in-the-uk

For lawyers/law students, check out Latham & Watkins “Vacation Scheme”. Several prominent US law firms have such programs for their London offices.

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“Many law firms . . . offer internships to undergraduate students”?

What is your basis for believing this? Please give some links to these programs. And let us know if you work in some capacity in the legal industry.

Why would a law firm offer undergrad internships? They aren’t hiring these kids after graduation. They don’t need free labor that requires a lot of training and supervision.

I am a lawyer, nonpracticing now, who worked at a BigLaw firm, as well as in-house, and have many friends and classmates who are still practicing, so am familiar with this world.

Edited to say that if you read my replies I am talking about private law firms.

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And adding to your fine post- just because you may find an undergrad or three or five at a biglaw firm, does not mean they are participating in a “legal internship” in any meaningful way.
I know undergrads with “make work” jobs at law firms that look nice on the resume because Uncle Mike is CEO of a Fortune 100 company and the law firm that handles their SEC issues values the relationship enough to find an obscure spot to stash the nephew for 8 weeks.

Compare that the “official” summer interns after the L2 year, where those interns are in a formal program designed to separate the wheat from the chaff and make offers at the end of the summer for fulltime employment after the new grads take the bar exam.

There are enough ethical, confidentiality and procedural issues at big law firms when they are dealing with actual lawyers or soon-to-be lawyers. Having to brief every 20 year old college student on insider trading regulations so they don’t inadvertently commit a felony is a bridge too far. Nobody has the time.

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All this is nice - and I’m not suggesting some “majors” or “schools” are better preparers - but that’s hard to know. Rank doesn’t = rigor.

Another school that publishes where attended is #14 Vandy (if using US News). Their 2028 class had 173 students from 83 schools including academic stalwarts Belmont, Birmingham Southern (no longer exists), Florida Atlantic, Lynn, North Florida, Tennessee Chatanooga.

I do think it’s hard for any admission counselor to know the drive or work ethic or training of a specific student at most any school.

That said, so many, like Vandy, are pushing that gap year today that maybe that is how they determine differentiation beyond a GPA range (3.77/3.97 with a 3.91 median) or LSAT (167 to 171 with a 170 median).

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Here is a primer from Pitt by way of example:

As they explain, it is not quite impossible to find undergrad internships, it is just very difficult, and fortunately not all necessary to be competitive for law school admissions.

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You are correct that there are London offices of US firms. You are incorrect that there is even a single job at any of them for an undergrad. Not. A. One. In fact there no jobs for someone who’s just graduated from law school at those London offices either. Lawyers start work in the US and then are transferred to a foreign office.

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When my daughter applied for internships during her DC semester, she can across some law firm internships for undergrads. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they are legal roles. Law firms are businesses too.

Here’s a few examples seeking undergrads:

The Washington Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs (WLC) Prisoners’ Rights Internship provides students with firsthand experience investigating conditions in jails and prisons throughout the country.

Antonoplos & Associates

As an undergraduate legal intern, you will be able to assist our attorneys, paralegals, and administrative staff. The most common tasks our undergraduate interns work on include but are not limited to:

  • Perform complicated legal work under the supervision of an attorney

  • Draft documents

  • Perform legal research

  • Prepare and organize files and binders

  • Sit in on client meetings

  • Answer phone calls

  • Write promotional materials

  • Write blog posts on legal topics

  • Take important documents to the local courthouse

  • Research legal issues for attorneys and paralegals

Zhou Law Group P.C. is a boutique law firm focused on real estate, estate planning, and immigration matters.

This internship is a sales-oriented but ethics-compliant position focused on supporting lawful client engagement and business development initiatives. The intern will assist with outreach, visibility, and referral development in a strictly informational and relationship-based manner, under attorney supervision.

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Here is another:

Public service undergraduate opportunities in the legal field are available in probably every major city in the USA. Here is an example for the Chicago area:

https://indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/undergraduate-law-internships

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Would sure like to know what this means.

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I’m in a position to be able to view a large number of law student resumes from elite schools. Very few of those students gain “legal internship” experience as undergrads. I’m not saying it’s nonexistent - just rare. Must more common are business roles, public interest roles, policy, politics. Basically everything but legal roles.

Large law firms simply do not hire undergraduate students in any legal type of role. A rare few have undergraduate internships working in some other area at the firm (for example, some have internships working with the recruiting team). Mid-sized and smaller firms may sometimes hire undergrads, but as you point out, those roles are likely to be more administrative. Students that are in those roles might benefit from soaking up the atmosphere, but the skills they are learning are not “legal skills.”

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Law firms do hire undergraduate interns; usually the roles are classified as administrative for private law firms.

If a serious undergraduate student wants to do an internship in the legal field, the opportunities are there. Of course, many of these opportunities are in government as well as in the non-profit area, but private law firms also use undergraduates for various types of work in a law office.

Many just want exposure to a law office, while many others are devoted to a cause.

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Don’t know and my daughter applied for none. Wasn’t her interest area. I just remember there was a substantial amount.

Nonetheless, firms hire interns and I know even non-interns - so I just wanted to support that statement made.

I don’t think anyone out there - whether a banker or admissions officer or an automotive sales/marketing guy or HR person in a specific business knows how every business/firm/college works 100% - regardless of blanket statements regularly made that allow for no deviation of knowledge.

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@even_flow Going back to OP’s original question: Pursuing an overseas degree means that your GPA will be reported on the International scale of Superior, Above Average, Average, or Below Average as @Publisher has mentioned

Here is some data on the T14 law schools acceptance of applicants with non-US based GPAs: Which t14 law schools are friendly towards international students?, International Friendly Law School Tier List

The comment on the first post is especially useful, for % of students with a US-based GPA, vs. non-US-based GPA.

I think the bigger thing you have to consider is your study style and personality. UK schools are very academic - there are no multiple-choice questions, and everything is essay based. You compete for the ‘Best Thesis in Political Science’, spend a lot of hours in the library, and have academic discussions with similar, slightly more introverted folks. Lots of skipping lectures and self-studying, because essays will test on things not covered in class. Less emphasis is placed on extracurriculars, with the only ones that exist mainly being sports and recreational teams.

In the US, it is the complete opposite. Most friends I know spend only ~50% of their time on classes. A lot of it is studying off slides and practice exams and the content is more straightforward. However, you spend the other 50% on your time on extracurriculars and professional development - volunteering, being club president, dean’s advisory groups, fraternities/sororities, firm presentations, networking and coffee chats, pre-law frats and clubs, case competitions, model UN, the list goes on. Especially at the schools you listed which are state flagships, there is a lot of school spirit and tradition as well around atheletics and tailgating; overall it supports a much more extroverted lifestyle.

So ultimately, what I’m saying is go to the system which suits your personality better; I think that is far and away the more important factor than how US law schools will view your resume

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Important to note that a law degree in the UK is a three year undergraduate degree (four years in Scotland). This adds a different dimension to OP’s interest in attending undergraduate school in England (and, yes, I understand that OP applied to amajor in politics and international relations).

@Inspiro Data from T-14 law schools may not reveal the full picture unless LLM students are included.

OP: Can you switch your major to law from politics/international relations ? Would add an interesting twist to your options ! And, it would provide discussion sufficient to justify an additional thread.

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This is absolutely true. However, in the same way that an adcom would be suspicious of a college student claiming they “handled complex surgical cases” during their shadowing (even if a particular doctor wasn’t worried about a malpractice case or the ethics involved, the hospital CERTAINLY would be), some of us are pointing out that law school adcom’s will be suspicious of an undergrad student claiming they handled “complex” legal matters during an internship. And the state bar ethics committee would be all over that as well.

Administrative work? Sure. Law firms hire receptionists and clerks and secretaries and folks who maintain excel spreadsheets showing which conference room is available at which hours in every office.

“complex legal matters”? Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. Law firms are very careful about the work they assign to paralegals. The non-lawyers at a law firm stay in their own lane. And they do not handle anything that could be described as “complex legal work” even if it’s complicated in its own way.

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Some of these posts are hilarious. I assume that the posters are just kidding. LOL !

No state bar ethics committee will investigate.

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There is some clever work being done in those threads to try to sort T14s by friendliness to International applicants. But unless I missed something, I am not sure it is really narrowing in on the specific category of a US resident who goes to a non-US undergrad.