UMass Amherst Commonwealth College full-ride vs. Caltech/UChicago

Parents Forum
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<p>This is a very interesting comment. I thought about it before. Here is my take on this. In comparison to college education, high school education is by far more regional. With the exception of a few private boarding schools and a few magnate schools in certain cities, high caliber kids are not systematically depleted from local schools. There are many good local public schools without entrance exams. Upon graduation, vast majority of these high caliber kids are absorbed by the top tier colleges, leaving very few to spread among the remaining 3000 colleges. </p>

<p>Imho, a kid with good potential just needs a dozen or so other high caliber kids in his/her high school to keep him/her stimulated and moving forward or rising to level of peers. Since you must have the “most rigorous curriculum” box checked to have a decent shot at elite colleges, these kids will be taking more or less the same classes for four years. In S1’s class, there are about 20 or so such kids and they all know each other. As far as I know, every one of them is headed to either an elite college or an accelerated MD program. These kids are being systematically removed from ever entering lower tier colleges. Without enough high caliber peers, the education experience and benefit can be quite different. Given the diversity of curriculum in college, you’ll need a lot more than just a dozen or so high caliber peers to keep a brilliant student interested.</p>

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<p>I know your son worked very hard to get into Chicago and CalTech and the same hard work earned him a full ride at an excellent university’s honor college. I’ve been following your postings and rooting for you all year.</p>

<p>Some things else to consider, besides the academic ones, are the “opportunity costs” or, more likely, the “missed opportunity” costs.</p>

<p>What other opportunties will be financially available to your son if he takes the full-ride? Will he be able to travel every summer? Take unpaid interships rather than work? Take the internships he wants rather than the ones that pay better? Explore other academic areas? </p>

<p>My s worked throughout HS, full time during the summers and has excellent scholarships and has made excellent grades this past year. This summer, I don’t care if he works. He’s going to be an RA next year and will futher reduce our costs. I want him to travel, to work on a project at a local non-profit and read, play music, go fishing and enjoy the summer. (He, of course, has already signed up to complete his Spanish requirement at the local CC.)</p>

<p>Even though you want the best for your children and are willing to sacrifice, will the financial burden effect your relationship? Will he have the flexibility to be 18 and enjoy his college experience? I know he takes his education very seriously. But college can be more than just the classroom. Will knowing that he has earned a “full-ride” relieve some of the pressure and allow him to fully engage in college? Only you and your son know if any of these issues matter. I don’t mean to presume… just throwing out the questions.</p>

<p>Plus, you can always give him that extra $100,000 as a graduation present if he takes the full-ride!</p>

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<p>I live in MA and I know what a beating UMASS has taken over the past few years. Has your son gone out to visit the biology dept and talked to the profs? What kind of research are they doing in genetics? How are the lab facilities? I went to UMASS Lowell for a grad degree in eng and I know that a lot of great prof put up with the abuse the states gives them (low wages, etc) because they love their job. Perhaps Amherst is the same. </p>

<p>If finances were not at least a little part of the equation I would pick Caltech in a heartbeat. But, it sounds like they are at least a consideration. I don’t know anything about genetics, but I would suspect he will need to go on to grad school. How about a compromise, If UMASS looks OK for undergrad have him go there and then you pay for grad school?</p>

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<p>Well, my S is going to UMASS Amherst in the fall. I was impressed by the engineering college and think it will be a good fit for him. He wanted a large, diverse school.</p>

<p>We also have two others, and cost factored into this decision. S had an opportunity to go to a couple of expensive private schools, and we had to say no. If he does well as an undergraduate, we will help him through the graduate school of his dreams.</p>

<p>But none of those schools were the caliber of a Caltech or Chicago. If our S was accepted into one of those programs, I think we would have reached a different decision. If it won’t bankrupt you, I hope you can find a way to make it happen for him.</p>

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<p>I agreed with everything you wrote up until the “dozen or so high caliber peers.” What makes you think that there aren’t 160 kids at UMASS that fit that description? </p>

<p>The sad fact is that for some of those high caliber kids in your son’s school, high school will be there high point. Conversely, there will be non-high caliber kids in your son’s class that will go on to big success in college or in life. That’s just the way it goes. Additionally, there will be kids that go to a school thinking they know what they want to do only to change there thinking significantly when in college. Bottom line is there are a lot of uncertainty in a college track. What’s not uncertain is the amount it is going to cost. I also agree with another poster. Perhaps your concerns are best discussed with those manning the departments he has an interest in. </p>

<p>However, if he does stay the course, Caltech will still be there when it matters (grad school). </p>

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<p>No. Surrounding oneself with stimulating peers continues throughout life. Further, college is the new high school where grads aren’t allowed to do more and more jobs (before an advanced degree) and college graduation is the requirement to be on the wrong side of the counter at a car rental booth. </p>

<p>[No</a> Jobs Without College as Employers Treat Degree as a Minimum - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2009/03/27/no-jobs-without-college-as-employers-treat-degree-as-a-minimum.html]No”>http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2009/03/27/no-jobs-without-college-as-employers-treat-degree-as-a-minimum.html)</p>

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<p>My S also was accepted into Commonwealth College with a lot of merit money. His main academic interests are in fields in which UMass is exceptionally strong, yet we still could not persuade him to consider UMass as a real possibility. He is now a 2nd year student at UChicago, where he is thriving and genuinely happy and at peace with himself for the first time in his life. As I sometimes say to him, he is among his “peeps”; he would have found some people with sensibilities like his wherever he attended, but at UChicago he is pretty much surrounded by kindred souls. I’ll leave the CalTech vs. UChicago debate to someone else, but to me the <em>only</em> reason your son should choose UMass is the money. This is way too subjective a decision for strangers on the internet to assist with in a meaningful manner, as only you can determine your level of comfort with the financial stretch and adjustments you and your family would need to make with either CalTech or UChicago. If your son is pretty much a mainstream kid socially, he’ll probably be able to have a great experience at UMass, but I think the difference for many kids who are drawn to CalTech and UChicago is like the difference between the plant that gets food, water, and sunshine and grows vs. the one that also gets Miracle Gro and flourishes.</p>

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<p>I don’t have time to read the full thread right now, but PM if you have any questions about UMass. I’m in ComCol and have almost a full ride… I’ll check back later tonight and will come back to read the whole thread later as well.
(Btw, I would very highly recommend UMass)</p>

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I think the OP’s son would do “just fine” just about anywhere. The question is whether the cost differential is worth the uncontested value-added of Chicago/Caltech (the actual amount of value added is highly contested).</p>

<p>I reiterate what has been said previously, that the OP’s S has a 99% chance of going to grad school for free unless his interests diverge into the humanities/social sciences (unlikely, if he’s considering Caltech) or into medicine. So even if he takes on Stafford loans for undergrad, he’s not expecting to add significantly to that debt for postgrad.</p>

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This is really insightful. Setting aside academics, UMass is much more of a mainstream social experience compared to Chicago or Caltech. I wouldn’t say that about all “elite” colleges, but these particular two have distinct all-encompassing personalities.</p>

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<p>I do not know about UMass but yes, Chicago and Caltech have distinct and somewhat quirky personalities. </p>

<p>The other factor is size, Caltech has 900 undergraduates, Chicago about 6500 and I sure UMass may be much larger. That could be an factor.</p>

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Actually, good humanities and soc sci PhD programs are fully funded, and the others are not worth attending.</p>

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<p>stillnadine, thanks for your kind words. The savings from the full-ride will simply be used to pay down our debt and support the activities of other kids. There will not be a $100K check waiting for S1 when he graduates ;). I don’t see how making the financial sacrifice will affect our relationships with the kids. If anything, it may strengthen our relationships because the kids will not be driven to activities as often!</p>

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<p>I did not say or imply that. UMass Amherst most likely has more than 160 high caliber kids. My earlier post was only directed at the quoted statement.</p>

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<p>No doubt about this. However, my immediate concern is not about “success in life”, it is about receiving a high quality education that quenches one’s intellectual thirst, challenges one’s limits, and through hard work, builds one’s character. It is my hope, at the same time, this education also provides a high quality training in his field of interest.</p>

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<p>I honestly don’t think that the overall quality of the student body matters as much as everyone thinks it does. Yes, there are some exceedingly dumb people here at UMass. There are also tons of kids who were ranked very highly in their high school classes (on my floor alone, I know of two high school valedictorians and one salutatorian, which numerous others who were in the top ten of their class). But honestly, how many people can you really interact with in one day? UMass is big enough that you will have no problem finding people of a similar intelligence level to you.</p>

<p>That being said, I went to UMass purely for financial reasons. It was my safety school, I expected to hate it, and planned to beg and plead my parents to transfer after a year or two. Now I see that when I graduate I will be very well prepared for grad school because the academics here are actually fairly challenging, especially if you seek out the right courses. It’s also a bit more diverse here compared to the other schools I were considering, where everyone probably would’ve been white and upper-middle class. I’m not saying that would be the case at either UChicago or Caltech, though.</p>

<p>My advice would be to visit all three schools if he hasn’t already and weigh his options, which perhaps giving more weight to UMass due to the cost difference. I don’t think he could go wrong with any of these schools, though, and at this point is comes down to other factors like the food, the dorms, etc.</p>

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<p>PCP</p>

<p>Many years ago my S had similar choice; free ride at state schools and local privates, vs Caltech and another top school. Caltech cost $10,000 less than the other. S chose Caltech after visiting, spending time in classes. Caltech is still “best value” college. </p>

<p>Son can be shy. The Housing sustem was perfect for him. As you know, the kids rotate for a week thru the Houses, giving them a chance to find their niche, and often, to choose a roommate (tho the 3 redesigned Houses have many singles). The lounges, kitchens, large computer/study rooms made it easier to mingle. Very easy to get involved with ECs. S did 2 major leadership positions. He also began working first semester, starting at $10 hour in the cafe, then moved on to $30/hr positions. He had jobs every summer, earning $6-11,000. Back then, there were upperclass merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Sure, Caltech is hard work. The peer group and the close relationships one makes with profs, the easy access to try out different labs, make it worthwhile. My son and several friends stayed around an extra year to work in labs. Everyone he knows got into grad or professional schools. Most telling is that he was so torn about leaving CA universities to move to NE for grad school.</p>

<p>My decision to spend full fare for Caltech was based on my personal experience attending a flagship school. Some of my classes were with other honors students, and we were suppose to live on a separate floor. Then, each bed was filled with regular kids. My rm/mt drove me crazy until she got pregnant and moved out. I did spend time with some nice people, but I didn’t make the kind of friends my son did.</p>

<p>UChicago has many fans too, so no offense meant. I lived in Amherst for several years, MANY decades ago. I imagine the town has grown since then. Pasadena has scores of cheap restaurants and movie theaters, and hiking/beaches available. The Houses plan events over weekends.</p>

<p>anyway, congrats to your son. I’m sure he will do fine anywhere</p>

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<p>PCP:

If the intentions are to get a high quality education that quenches intellectual thirst then just send your DS to Caltech. I think it is a no brainer.</p>

<p>Also Caltech ranks high (5) in over all biological sciences but not necessarily in Genetics. U Chicago is not ranked in top 10 in Biological Sciences at all.</p>

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<p>Here’s a thread that may be helpful to you (or not): <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Congrats to your S!</p>

<p>PS. I’m (in all likelihood) not paying for grad school and still glad I didn’t take on UG debt. YMMV.</p>

<p>PPS. I also think that if your S chooses the full ride some of the savings should be “his” to use for grad school apps, additional living expenses in grad school, summer courses, etc–not the full 100k, but it seems slightly disingenuous to me to say “well, he have 100k to fund Uchicago/Caltech, but if choose UMass, nothing for you.” You no doubt think (rightfully) that your S earned his acceptances… well, he also earned the full ride to UMass if he were to choose it, you would be benefiting financially (because you would have/could have paid for one of reach schools, no?) from his choice and yet he would see no benefit from those savings, even a fraction of them. That seems unfair and sort of a disincentive for choosing UMaas. JMO.</p>

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<p>I think your mind is already made up. But I wanted to share that I was in a very selective program at a large state university, and because of it had opportunities that I’m not sure I would have had if I had been enrolled in a school where everyone was like me. These opportunities (I believe) helped secure my admission into a top graduate program and still impact my life and career today.</p>

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<p>Congrats on great choices. A cautionary word…if med school is in his sights, I’d research the success of the students in med school admissions.</p>

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<p>“the academics here are actually fairly challenging, especially if you seek out the right courses.”</p>

<p>Doesn’t sound like a ringing endorsement to me!</p>

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<p>PCP- I’m with you all the way except for your comment that the prime area for cutting would be opportunities for your younger kids.</p>

<p>We were never big into paid EC’s- H and I worked full time at demanding jobs with travel, so we never got into the gymboree, mommy and me type activities. That continued into middle school and HS- if the kids couldn’t figure out the transportation, public bus, walk there after school arrangements it didn’t work. So the kids did the free type activities in town. The one exception was CTY-- a life saver in many ways, particularly social.</p>

<p>But I have cousins and friends who have spent generously on EC opportunities for their kids- dance, sports, music, private coaches. I can tell you that cutting back for the young 'uns to fund the dreams of the eldest is usually a mistake. You need to look out 10 years from now (not two years from now) and calculate what the relationship among the siblings will be if mom and dad go for broke on the talented Cal Tech caliber oldest child, but end up financing afternoons in the park and the free library hour as the EC alternatives for the younger ones.</p>

<p>For us it didn’t matter-- we ended up treating all of them with relative equity. But if we had spent on enrichment opportunities for number 1 and then had come up with a new and improved thrift plan for the younger ones it could have caused a lot of problems. For sure I see that in my friends and family members. You’ve got the prima ballerina in training and your paying hundreds of dollars for shoes and equipment and lessons every month. Then the ballerina goes off to her dream college, and the number 2 sibling can’t go back to her soccer classes or chess or cello since the cupboard is bare.</p>

<p>Again, nobody knows your budget like you do. But I think it’s easier to cut the mom and dad expenses (this is your choice after all) then the other kids expenses. Are they choosing to send your kid to Cal Tech? Make this a family affair- i.e. roll out some pizza dough and watch Marx Brothers movies together instead of a night out, wash the car together on a sunny spring day, etc. rather than targeting your younger kids EC expenses as the way to make the pricier options work.</p>

<p>Best wishes to you- your son will do great wherever he lands.</p>

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<p>I think the above post is very thoughtful. I know there have been dozens of wrenches thrown into this decision, and I wish you the best.</p>

<p>As a U of C grad, I could say a ton about what it means to go there, but that’s really not the issue. I think if your son is going to be very regretful and always wish he’d taken the risk at his favorite school, I hope that you can get him there somehow. Of course UMass is essentially fine. Sometimes it’s not “settling” to go with the “lesser” option. Sometimes it’s truly making it work. But I get the feeling you all will feel like it’s settling, no matter how much easier financially it is. I’ve certainly known many kids who have made it work exceedingly well at state Us, in so many ways, but everyone is entitled to their own dream. I’m grateful I was able to follow mine. Again, good luck.</p>

<p>But to return to the family dynamic issue: I do feel that no matter how you decide to handle this, your younger kids should not feel like they are “pitching in” on your S1’s education by sacrificing things that are important to them. Sure, when any of us have kids in college vacations and entertainment get curtailed. But I definitely agree that there should be money for the younger kids somehow to continue with music, sports, camps, etc. This will only get stickier - my oldest sang and played piano (read: no cost); my youngest played instruments we had to rent and consider buying. So who was the “more important” musician? My older one was a girl scout, by choice - $1 week dues. My younger one: Irish Dance, at $100/mo for lessons, then $1000 (no kidding) for a costume when she reached the higher level. My oldest’s jaw dropped when she was in a room full of these costumes - unheard of for her! But I had to explain that these are choices parents make, and kids make, one by one, according to their own needs and values. </p>

<p>Now D1 is at a full-pay private. D2 may be at a state school, or like your S get a great scholarship at a lower-tiered school and choose it. Or she may be at $50K a year like #1. We’re trying to see each kid as their own person and not pit them against each other - especially since, after absolutely no comment from us, D2 decided on her own once to say, “Well, since you’re paying that for her, I guess I have to go to a state school.” There are so many temptations for siblings to feel resentment, we hashed that one out immediately. I think she finally believes us, now that we’re on her college search. But it’s been hard, and the last thing I would have wanted was for them to lose their relationship over something I could have done differently.</p>

<p>It’ll never be fair - I have only 1 heirloom piano, and they’re already talking about who’s going to get it! But at least it’s good-natured talk (and I’ve told them both that I intend to keep the piano until I’m 80 anyway!).</p>

<p>I know I speak from the perspective of someone who can do this at all - many readers are probably thinking the choice is obvious - save the money. But we all want the best for our kids.</p>

<p>Has it been brought up that your S could borrow the difference himself? That way it would only be his business and not impact your other kids. If you want to pay the loans for him someday, that could be an option. But at least it wouldn’t strap you now.</p>