im also willing to take 2 years off to buff my CV, do you think that increases my chances? I have heard that a lot of residencies don’t like extremely young candidates so I’m ok with taking time off and working to improve my cv to better my chances.
I think it depends on what exactly you would be doing during those 2 years and how productive it was (which is usually measured, but not always, by the number of publications you get out of it). Keep in mind that the UMKC School of Medicine would have to sign off on it, in order to allow you time off from the 6 year program. For something like taking 2 years off, it most likely would have to be a formal program of some sort, leading to some type of terminal degree, usually a master’s degree in research, in public policy, or in public health. I would inquire more about that as I don’t know how often students at UMKC SOM actually do something like that.
You can see what past UMKC medical students have done here with respect to research fellowships: https://med.umkc.edu/docs/research/student-research/Research_Fellowships_2022.pdf
Keep in mind that taking time off from medical school to do research is no assurance of matching into a particular specialty (coming from any medical school, not just UMKC) when you come back and apply for residency during Year 6. Deciding whether or not to take time off from medical school to build up your CV/residency application, in order to increase the chances of matching into a particular specialty, is something that you usually discuss with your clinical faculty mentors during medical school. That is usually a discussion that happens after they have a few data points (your performance during the basic sciences, your clerkship performance, your board scores, etc.) from medical school.
This stuff is a LONG way off for you to be thinking about as a high schooler, but just giving you a better idea of what some of the future puzzle pieces will look like.
Hey Roentgen, Thanks for the document, it was very informative. I did realize that only 1 or 2 people completed these programs a year, is that because most people don’t apply, or because they are extremely selective?
I think it’s a combination of not everyone wanting to take a year (or two) off from medical school in the first place and also some of these specific programs (for example, those from the NIH) being competitive.
It may be 1-2 people for each specific program individually, but when you add up all the formal research programs and those who do take off a year from med school to do a research fellowship, it can be quite a few people in any particular year.
The number of people who take a year off from med school in each class to pursue something like this will vary from year to year, although I would say it’s probably more frequent now since 2014, than it has been in years/decades past, just due to student specialty interests and research exploration being more formalized within the medical school especially in the last 10 years.
@Roentgen
Thanks for the suggestions. Can you help me understand how the study approach has to be different for organic chem?
Also, is it fairy typical for state schools in midwest to have a relatively high number of students going to primary care? I noticed about the same percentage or higher (45-50%) going to primary care consistently at UMN that is ranked much higher(#35 for research - same as Brown).
So I would say Organic Chemistry requires understanding reaction mechanisms (these are step-by-step processes of how reactions occur) and predicting how organic molecules react based on their functional groups. In Organic Chemistry, you also have to be able to visualize organic molecules in 3D (usually using models or online animations) in order to be able to understand their structure and how they react. More of this course is problem-solving and leaning towards applying mechanisms and functional group knowledge to predict reaction products, identify starting materials, or choosing appropriate reagents (these are substances that make reactions happen).
It’s quite different from General Chemistry I and II (which is essentially AP Chemistry) where memorizing formulas, understanding concepts, and performing calculations will take you far. That’s not as much the case with Organic Chemistry, where understanding and problem solving is critical. The latter course will require a more active learning approach vs. just passively reading a textbook.
That may be the case, although those numbers can be misleading as it is possible to subspecialize after Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, or OB-Gyn residency. The type of students that matriculate into a particular medical school can also determine that. University of Minnesota is ranked #2 for primary care, so it’s not surprising that many of their students may want to do primary care.
hey Roentgen, What would you say is something you wish more prospective students knew about UMKC before entering the school?
So I would say several things (with about 2 weeks left to go before people have to make a decision by May 1st):
Every program (whether that’s a Bachelor/MD program or a 4 year undergraduate program) has pros and cons. It all comes down to which compromises that you’re personally ok with making this early on in the game, by going a specific route. And that’s not going to be the same calculation for everyone in the program. And it’s ok to say that some compromises being asked from you are way too much and way too soon. I think too often students feel they have to do the “grin and bear it” approach with this program. What I mean by that is after they get a UMKC BA/MD acceptance, they feel obligated to go (especially those who are out-of-state), not realizing or understanding in advance the real compromises that they’re making by choosing such a program. In a way they feel like it’s a blessing from God, and to turn that down is turning down a very huge opportunity.
The 6 year aspect (of which UMKC is now the only Bachelor/MD program left with that time interval) and no MCAT can be very intoxicating for a high schooler. I can very much empathize with that feeling. Keep in mind though that those 2 aspects by themselves are not necessarily good reasons to do this program. Over a lifetime, 2 years (at age 18, two years will feel like a LONG time) is very much a drop in the bucket and the physician pathway is one filled with many standardized exams both during med school (USMLE exams, NBME subject exams) and even during residency training & eventual clinical practice (what are called specialty board certification exams and maintenance of certification exams).
When it comes to your undergraduate experience (both in terms of coursework and personal/social life), understand that the UMKC BA/MD program is not going to closely replicate the normal undergraduate experience of state flagship schools like UCLA, UC-Berkeley, Mizzou, UT-Austin, University of Michigan, University of Florida, etc. For some people, not having that normal undergraduate experience didn’t really matter to them, for others it very much did matter, although maybe they didn’t realize it until a few years into the program. We only have 3 degrees that are currently available to BA/MD students within the time constraints of the program: BLA, BA in Biology, and BA Chemistry (notice we can’t even do the BS degree of the latter two majors). Unfortunately, we don’t get to pursue majors in Engineeering or in Business just based on how the UMKC Bachelor/MD curriculum is setup. That may be a real deal breaker for some and it’s ok if it is.
If you’re having doubts, talk about it with your parents (yes, even if your parents are the “overly strict” type and/or even if your parents are not physicians or in healthcare). Don’t hide your feelings and think that you just have to analyze this decision all on your own. You need to have the added perspective of someone who has gained life experience, because the truth is even the most academically stellar 18 year old high school senior doesn’t have that life experience to draw from. You want your parents to be in the loop with regards to your thinking and to think things out with you so that you can make the most informed decision you can, especially if you may be dependent on them financially for tuition. At the end of the day though, it’s YOU who is going through the program, not your parents. So keep that in mind when it comes to advising and making a final matriculation decision.
If finances are an issue, see exactly what non-loan based financial aid you qualify for from the school. Talk to a financial advisor close by to you so you can get a better idea on repayment of loans, etc.: Selecting A Financial Planner | Students & Residents. You may be able to find one that will do it pro bono (FREE): https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/financial-advisor/free-professional-financial-advice/. You can go to this AAMC website as well: FIRST (Financial Information, Resources, Services, and Tools) | Students & Residents.
Talk with current UMKC BA/MD students. Don’t be afraid to do this. And don’t just talk to people in Year 1 either. That’s sort of the honeymoon phase of the program where you’re still really psyched about being an 18 year old college student with a med student short white coat. Talk to students in Years 3, 4, 5, and especially those in Year 6 who recently matched and are about to graduate in May. You can either do that through the admissions office (where they should be willing to connect you with students who are willing to speak with you) or you can go on Facebook and message students (formally introduce yourself) and ask if they’d be willing to talk by phone or by Skype (so they can be honest with you one on one). Remember, you already have the acceptance. So at this point you’re just doing your due diligence.
If possible (and not everyone may be able to do this), visit the UMKC undergraduate campus and UMKC medical school campus again now that you have an acceptance at hand. You can ask all the questions you wanted to ask but may have felt too afraid to ask on tours before the interview.
I hope that helps! If not, let me know as I’m happy to explain further. Everyone can, of course, private message me here on College Confidential, if they feel the forum is too public for their particular question, but if you have a question that you think may be of benefit to everyone and future applicants, post in this thread as that is what forums like this are for where present applicants/matriculants give back so that future applicants/matriculants can benefit.
how do you think the changes in the dean will affect UMKC? I heard he is trying to increase opportunities for research, and he is building a new building on the health campus.
So I would not take into account the change in the UMKC School of Medicine Dean as a factor when it comes to making your own personal determination as to whether or not to matriculate in the UMKC BA/MD program. A medical school dean serves more as a chief administrator and academic leader of the institution of the medical school. They oversee the medical school’s finances, faculty management, and external relations & fundraising. They are usually not involved in the day-to-day issues that arise in a medical school, when it comes to the things that impact you directly as a student (coursework, curricular issues, clinical rotation issues, grades, residency match). Those things are usually delegated to others (most of whom have been at the medical school longer than even the Dean has).
Historically speaking, it’s been difficult for UMKC SOM to get deans who don’t have some type of prior connection to UMKC (maybe they were a former BA/MD graduate, or they were a current faculty member/docent): https://med.umkc.edu/deans-past-present/. I think much of that stems from a) not many people wanting to move to Kansas City unless they’re from the Midwest originally and b) not understanding the experience and nuances of the UMKC Bachelor/MD program (much less an entire medical school built around the concept), but also due to UMKC not having as much overall funding and resources, compared to similarly ranked/tiered medical schools. As students, we used to joke about how when it came to state legislative funding, UMKC was the “red-headed stepchild” compared to University of Missouri-Columbia (Mizzou), which always seemed to get more money as many state legislators graduated from Mizzou.
With respect to increasing opportunities for research (something historically speaking that UMKC School of Medicine has been weak in, compared to similar tiered medical schools, see KU Med Center and Mizzou) and building a new building on the health sciences campus:
- https://med.umkc.edu/100-million-project-planned-for-health-sciences-district/,
- Revealing the Future of the UMKC Health Sciences District | University of Missouri - Kansas City
- https://www.umkc.edu/chancellor/docs/proposed-health-sciences-expansion.pdf
These goals were already in place before the new dean who is also a BA/MD alum (UMKC Alumnus Named Dean of School of Medicine | University of Missouri - Kansas City) came in: UMKC Seeks New Dean for Renowned Medical School | University of Missouri - Kansas City.
Looking at this from another perspective - average age of med school matriculant seems to be 24 years now - i.e. 2 gap years. In most countries, a student would have finished med school by that time (IMG Physicians in US themselves would have done this). Is the increased “maturity” really translating to a significant difference in outcomes for patients/payers - whether from cost or quality perspective?
Is it better to have a model like pharmacy school where students just take the pre-req for 2 years - even at community college - take MCAT and then matriculate to med school? (and gain relevant experiences along the way). For those unsure of medicine as a career or prefers the full undergrad experience, they can still do that. That may avoid the “acceleration” (to complete the arbitrary 120 credits for a bachelors degree) while building the required foundation/experience.
A couple of studies have tracked this, though, please, note that the first study only followed HPME estudents at Northwestern and compared them against other Feinberg SOM students so the study is limited in scope. (It’s also old-- Feb 2016)
There were no statistically meaningful differences between BA/MD students and traditional admission students MD completion, class rank (by quintiles), AOA status.
Accelerated students scored an average of 231.7 on Step 1 and 236.8 on Step 2.Non-accelerated students scored 233.- and 237. 7 respectively.
The biggest difference that accelerated pathway student were significantly more likely to choose categorial internal medicine as their specialty (35.8%) vs 20.6% for tradtional pathway students.
A more recent study (2022) that surveyed a broad range of BA/MD students using AMCAS’s GQ survey.
Again, no statistically meaningful difference in academic achievement for accelerated pathway students vs non-accelerated students at school that offer an AP pathway vs non-accelerated students students at school that don’t offers a AP program.
However, there was a statistically significant difference the choice of specialties with
more ([AP pathway BA/MD students] plann[ing] to care for underserved populations and practice family medicine than non-AP students from AP schools (55.7% vs 33.9%)
Source:
So I think when it comes to medicine, there are too many variables involved to directly link age of a graduating medical student with patient outcomes.
UMKC has a similar 6 year pathway for PharmD school in a 2+4 format: Doctor of Pharmacy < University of Missouri-Kansas City. They took Year 1 Anatomy and Year 1 Microbiology with us.
These are great articles. I would say though that Northwestern’s 7 year HPME program (which they terminated in 2020) is not really like UMKC’s 6 year BA/MD program. I’d say there are quite a few very significant differences, so this study may not be as helpful in extrapolating to Bachelor/MD programs at other institutions.
Also while there was no statistically significant differences in actual academic performance in coursework of the HPME vs. non-HPME group, the Table 3 on specialty choice is possibly more an indication of the students’ relative competitiveness for the more competitive specialties.
In the second article, I would say the accelerated 3 year MD track is different than a Bachelor/MD track from high school in terms of prior coursework, experiences, and incentives.
@Roentgen - My understanding is that most pharmacy schools follow 6 year curriculum, so UMKC is not an anomaly (unlike med school). Though pharmacy pre-reqs seem to be very similar to typical med school ones, they don’t require a 4 year undergrad degree to matriculate to pharmacy school and may only need completion of ~60 credit hours for those pre-reqs vs 120+ credit hours needed for a bachelors degree in most of the BS/MD programs.
Med schools seem to be going through some experimentation regarding curriculum. Example - NJMS has 3 year med school for primary care providers(basically 3+3 model), Hackensack Meridian- one of the newer med schools - has 4+3 model where pre-clinicals are completed in 16 months and clerkships in 20 months.
I also found the new proposed interdisciplinary health science district from your earlier post quite interesting - especially combining data, technology, health equity along with traditional disciplines of medicine, dentistry, pharmacy etc. It may be better for physicians to have more exposure to those newer disciplines in 21st century to deliver more effective care. i.e. invest the students time in those areas vs 2 additional years of undergrad degree that may add very little value to the patient outcomes.
HPME study is quite interesting, but not entirely surprising from student outcome perspective since most countries complete med schools in 6 years after high school.
If more students are choosing primary care from accelerated programs, wouldn’t that be desirable considering the overall focus around health equity as well as predicted shortage of primary care physicians?
Most pharmacy schools are not 6 year programs, I don’t believe. The traditional pathway is 4 years of undergraduate coursework + 4 years of PharmD school. The accelerated route is the 0-6 PharmD programs (From High School to Pharmacy School: 0-6 Programs - Pharmacy for me) or combined bachelor’s/PharmD programs, but those are not the majority.
Some medical schools in recent years tend to abbreviate the basic science years to be less than 2 years (especially now more so with USMLE Step 1 being Pass/Fail), but the clerkship MS-3 year tends to stay the 1 year that it has always been. The 3 Year MD programs tend to chop off the MS-4 year with a pre-decided on specialty (usually in primary care fields: https://medicine.uams.edu/admissions/three-year-md/).
For accreditation purposes, the LCME requires all medical schools to have certain mandatory clinical rotations.
ED-15. The curriculum should include clinical experiences in family medicine, internal medicine, obstetrics and gynecology, pediatrics, psychiatry, and surgery. Schools that do not require clinical experience in one or another of these disciplines must ensure that their students possess the knowledge and clinical abilities to enter any field of graduate medical education.
Source: Functions and Structure of a Medical School
Standards for Accreditation of Medical Education Programs Leading to the MD Degree
Additionally, every state’s medical licensing board dictates what clerkships are required for all med schools located within that state. The board can add to the the LCME’s list, but not subtract from it.
(This is why some medical schools require a neurology rotation and others do not.)
Because of the number of mandated rotations, it seems unlikely the MS3 will ever get shortened.
@Roentgen - AFAIK, 4 year undergrad is not not required for Pharm. D, just pre-reqs (~2 year) that can even be taken at a community college which will be much cheaper than an integrated 6 year program. I happen to know a few who took that route after high school and saved time and money in the last 6-10 years.
Pre-requisites for pharmacy are very similar to medicine(actually more extensive as it usually includes anatomy and physiology as well as Biochemistry which are optional for most med schools). If the student hasn’t made up their mind regarding pharmacy at the end of high school, I suppose they can go through undergrad and try multiple options like MD/DO, PA, Pharmacy etc.
You mentioned UMKC pharmacy, UIC is similar. No need to complete undergrad, even PCAT may not be needed.
There are multiple MD/DO schools that allow matriculation into med school after 90 credit hours from undergrad in 3 years. Realistically a high school curriculum with sufficient rigor and 2 years of pre-requisites may be sufficient for most healthcare careers.
I think Hackensack SOM combined MS3&4 into 20 month rotation/clerkship and removed 8 months from pre-clinical, thus saving an entire year. NJMS eliminates MS4 if the student decides to go to primary care, but they cover all rotations including EM and PM&R in addition to the ones you mentioned.
It will be interesting if more schools go this direction of either 2+4 or 3+3 model.