My son has heard the English 4 is actually more difficult than AP Lit at his high school. He didn’t know this when he registered. I’m not sure how colleges will view it. This is a public high school in CA so is underfunded. There are quite a few AP classes offered but almost no honors classes.
I don’t know what he will do if the decision comes down to a UC, Cal Poly vs a less desirable school (based on location, cost, and/or ranking). I don’t think he knows.
To clarify, I meant a less desirable school but one where he is offered a roster spot to swim.
When he visited the campuses, were students on campus or were they on break? Did he speak with any students? Sit in on any classes? Did he really not have any preference between the three campuses? If they were kind of equal, but in different ways, what were the various pros and cons of the campuses that he liked?
Does he like the Mudd/CMC swim team? Sounds like an offer there with full coach support is a possibility, and it checks every academic box. Are there specific reasons why it isn’t capturing his interest more strongly? Artificial Intelligence | Harvey Mudd College
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There are 4 LACs on this list that don’t offer an engineering major (Pomona, Williams, Bowdoin, Amherst). These are on the list since they seem to have strong math/CS departments (is this accurate?) and may be a fit athletically. We are not super familiar with them and did not want to rule them out too early. We plan to visit Pomona/Harvey Mudd in September.
Berkeley was on break (and dead) when we toured although he has been on the campus several times for swim meets and a summer camp. We live about 18 miles from the campus.
Oxy and Trinity were both during the spring and he did get to talk to some students. He didn’t get to sit in on any classes. He felt they seemed pretty similar in many ways except for location. I think he actually preferred LA over San Antonio (since LA has mountains which reminded him of home), but I think he’d choose Trinity because of the swim team. He doesn’t have a strong opinion about weather or politics (although I worry he might not realize what it’s like to deal with extreme cold/hot).
I think he needs to visit a few more schools in the next few months. I’m honestly not sure he knows what type of school he prefers (large vs small, city vs rural, etc). Maybe these things just don’t matter to him. He does care about the quality of the food. He doesn’t need a huge variety of food but does care about the quality. I have read some negative reviews about the food for some of the schools listed while others are highly rated for their food. As an athlete (and a boy), he eats a lot and enjoys eating out with teammates/friends so good food would be a plus.
He likes a more collaborative academic environment. He also wants challenging academics and strong teaching quality.
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Yes, all 4 of those LACs have excellent CS programs and even offer courses in machine learning. Pomona in particular has the advantage of students being able to elect up to 40% of their courses at Harvey Mudd or ant combination of Claremont colleges. Amherst is also a member of a consortium, which gives students access to up to 2 courses per semester in the engineering department at nearby University of Massachusetts or any other departments at UMass.
5C’s food is great and plentiful, and it doesn’t get boring because there are so many options across the consortium. There’s an app that delivers the menus for all of the dining venues on the 5 campuses, which students can consult to decide where to eat. Also, both Mudd and Pomona are highly collaborative, and the teaching is top-notch. I’m glad you’re getting to visit!
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Georgia Tech is a really tough admit especially OOS. Looking at about a 7% OOS AR for Engineering/CS. The EC’s are pretty good. I would recommend your kid retake the SAT and try get that verbal score up a bit. Have they tried taking the ACT? If not, I would recommend that as well. Good luck.
I would consult guidance & review the current school profile, the one released to colleges, (usually a one or two page PDF document) that includes data like number of honors courses, AP courses, average ACT/SAT data, passing AP rate, etc. Also, if you can find out the school’s track record for college placement over the past ten years - students that have gotten admitted to the most competitive schools (MIT is the one with the lowest admit rate on your list). Does “more difficult” mean the English IV teacher has a reputation for not awarding very many A’s or is the course content more difficult, interesting, and even unique (not like a traditional English IV class, focused on skills reinforcement from Eng I, III, III, grammar, spelling, state test prep, basics of composition in addition to some superficial exposure to literature and easier that English III, dealing with more students dealing with senioritis)? How common is it for higher achieving honors and gifted students (top 2% ranked) to opt for English IV over AP at this particular high school? Would there be any real disadvantage to taking AP or not taking AP?
AP English Test-Taker Data: Language Literature TOTAL
2020 535,478 333,980 (62.4%)
2021 321,029 160,771 (50.1%)
2022 520,771 339,401 (65.2%)
2023 562,328 356,043 (63.3%)
2024 597,097 389,272 (65.2%)
2025 616,294 416,531 (67.6%)
2026* 631,000 440,000 (69.7%)
AP English Test-Takers scoring “5”:
2020 67,235 31,030 (46.2%)
2021 46,997 15,846 (33.7%)
2022 53,999 57,436 (106.4%)
2023 58,029 53,092 (91.5%)
2024 58,358 53,268 (91.3%)
2025 82,614 67,642 (81.9%)
2026* 94,650 71,040 (75.2%)
(* = estimated)
It is reasonable to conclude that students that score “5” in AP English Language are the most likely to also score “5” in AP English Literature. Mostly 12th graders take literature & don’t receive the scores until July, after gaining admission & after making their final college selection by May 1st. The specific admissions cycle can make a difference and also changes to the exams themselves (content covered, grading “1-5” criteria, essay rubrics, recalibration, etc.)
How the colleges interpret that quality of your son’s English IV class, his performance in the class (should be grade “A” performance). Ensure that the college admissions is not misinformed or confused. For many schools, it may not matter to take literature since he already scored the “5” in language (and the 800 in math).
Also, if raising the SAT verbal score is a priority, one option over the other could lead to a more meaningful increase (in conjunction with a good test prep book to gain a slight increase in test savviness).
English 4 will NOT count as a rigorous class, but the AP will. His decision to reduce rigor his senior year, along with a relatively weak verbal SAT score is likely going to be a disadvantage at low admit rate schools. It would be a disadvantage and 100% be noted on his app at the school where I work, where we literally count rigorous courses…no need to consult the student profile for any of this.
With that said, I understand he doesn’t want to read fiction books and he has to do what is right for him. But that decision may come with consequences. I agree with the poster who said if he doesn’t want to read fiction, he should NOT apply to LACs.
At some of the schools on his list, moving to engineering might not be an option. Also, if he can make the switch and decides to, unless he took all of the first year engineering requirements, he would be unlikely to be able to graduate in four years.
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Amherst has an open curriculum which he might like. As for AP Lit, he may not be able to get into the class even if he wants to since the school district has been experiencing budget cuts and there is high demand for AP classes. He can talk to the guidance counselor once school starts about switching, but it may not be possible.
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Why would he go to a school that doesn’t have his true major of interest? Now, if he’s not sure on engineering but he may like it, isn’t it better to start in engineering and go to a school that offers it?
If you are looknig at MIT type schools, he should take the most rigorous next class - whatever it is. They want well rounded kids. If he takes regular English, he’s not going to excite admissions people.
I see where you said English 4 is harder than AP - but how will colleges see it if it’s just a regular class.
Depending on what he wants to do with engineering, often the better “names” don’t matter - short of a few schools, the where doesn’t matter. A SDSU will work side by side with UCSD, etc. My son turned down Purdue for Alabama and hired in at the same amount as kids from the Purdues, Case Western, etc. and also Akron and W Michigan, etc.
Robotics and I may be different - but it’s likely as much passing the entry tests as where you go - so there’s no assurance a “top” school is a better school.
Taking out swimming, here’s how I see your schools:
MIT - not close - the SAT is far too low
Harvey Mudd - unlikely but not MIT unlikely
Colorado School of Mines - yes, safety
Pomona - doesn’t fit - why would you apply here other than it’s a big name you know?
JHU - unlikely but not impossible
CWRU - if you show interest
Dartmouth - to get an accredited engineering degree, it’s 5 years - so it doesn’t make sense (to me). Reach school.
Lafayette - yes. Bucknell would be another as would Union College that would make sense of the LACs.
Williams - makes no sense if even the slightest interest in engineering.
Swat - reach
Bowdoin - See Williams - reach
W&L is interesting - they have engineering but it’s not accredited so it could hinder - especially companies that want ABET accredidation. Match school.
Amherst - same as Williams/Bowdoin
Trinity - a generic major. Safe
Tufts - match
I think - you have to be realistic - do you want to spend $100K at a Tufts or a $22K or so due to merit at Alabama?
I mean, would you be better at UCR than an over priced school when you may get the same job - or you might get a better one out of the cheaper school or a better one from the more expensive. There’s no way to know but don’t assume the higher you perceive the name that the better it is.
But why isn’t CMU on your list (big $) or Purdue (not big $) - Purdue a match/likely. Where are top robotics schools like Texas A&M, U Wash, Penn State, UMD, Arizona State, Wisconsin, etc. Schools like UMD and Wisconsin are also top math schools.
Don’t presume that a US News ranking means they are the strongest in the majors of interest.
Don’t assume you spending more will create more opportunities or provide better jobs - not in these fields.
Best of luck to you.
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Do you know how your son’s high school does with their students applying to the UCs, specifically Berkeley? They should know the budget cuts at the local schools. As ucbalumnus pointed out, it would be good to know the weighted and capped UC GPAs, and any information you can share about contacts with the swimming coaches.
He retook SAT in August and got 700 in verbal so is now at 1500 superscore. He probably won’t retake. I know it may still be too low for some schools.
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Congrats. I think your list is too long (think essay count) and you need to cut it. I’d cut anyone without an engineering major assuming the desire remains possible. I labeled some above.
If there’s any chance you’ll want to study engineering, why eliminate the possibility up front ?
Your son shouldn’t waste any more time with the SAT. He also shouldn’t underestimate himself. SAT scores of 700RW/800M are excellent and also different from a 750RW/750M or 800RW/700M or some other combination. I would much rather have the perfect verbal or math score!
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800 and 750 aren’t radically different. You can miss the same number of questions and score anywhere between 760 and 800 on math.
WRONG! An 800 is 99+ percentile and a 760 is 96th percentile, based on user group percentiles.
NOTE: User group percentiles are based on the actual SAT scores of students that graduated in the past three school years.