Manslaughter charge filed in Florida’s latest ‘stand your ground’ killing
There is video of what happened. Along with a brief description. Personally I think they will find him not guilty.
Guilty with the facts as presently known.
Presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, he’s presumed innocent for now. I wonder if the prosecutor can present the prior examples of this guy threatening to shoot three other people?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/14/us/florida-stand-your-ground-previous-incidents/index.html
He threatened one person because she was “driving too slow” through a school zone and a teenager because he didn’t go through a yellow light.
Disgusting.
I hope this guy is found guilty. He apparently has approached others parking in handicapped spots. The SYG law is awful. As the saying goes “don’t let your mouth write a check that your a$$ can’t cash”. Well that law allows cowards to do just that.
When will sane Floridians tire of this? At the time of the Trayvon Martin killing, a major newspaper in Florida conducted a review of all the criminal cases where the shooter claimed ‘Stand Your Ground’ as a defense. I was taken aback to read that in very, very many cases the parties were not “innocent” victims, but rather knuckleheads, troublemakers and other malevolent types (including gangsters) who willingly engaged in gun fights. And those knuckleheads were all acquitted, if prosecuted at all. Even an original sponsor of the law said it was being misapplied, as I recall.
It didn’t seem like he was in imminent danger. The other person seemed like he was backing off.
Nevertheless, this ruling will certainly set a strong precedent…
The stand your ground law effectively says that you may use deadly force against anyone who physically attacks you. It will be very difficult to get around that for the prosecutor from the video. Clearly the guy is a hothead who likes to take the law into his own hands, but I seriously doubt that this will get a conviction. I think the prosecutor should go after him for something else but he’ll never get manslaughter with the way the law is written.
See https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/us/marissa-alexander-released-stand-your-ground.html. As noted, Ms. Alexander eventually was released but she did spend six years in prison. I’m not comfortable with the burden-shifting change in the law that she proposed in 2017 but I also am very troubled about what seems to be the potential for bias in use of the stand-your-ground law.
Both men were looking for trouble. The deceased actually took a step or two toward the shooter after violently pushing him to the ground. Quickly stepped back once the gun was revealed. Otherwise it looked as though the deceased was going to continue his attack upon the individual on the ground.
I am horrified that a person was shot & killed, but it may have been a legal act based on the video evidence under Florida law. Also, I think that the state of mind of the shooter is relevant under Florida law.
Yes that state of mind is a key point, one doesn’t flip in an instant from “I’m going to get beaten to death” to “everything is OK” even if the other person is no longer attacking you.
But for the fact that he instigated the whole episode.
Whether the guy is found guilty or not, the case will be used to change the law. Something to the effect that you can’t use the defense if you’re the instigator.
As I understand it manslaughter can be intentional (voluntary manslaughter- shooter intended to…); or unintentional (involuntary manslaughter –shooter was acting recklessly, no intent). Apparently shooter had other incidences of using weapon improperly. I’ll guess prosecutor felt that because of stand your ground, charging with murder/voluntary manslaughter might be problematic, but maybe if charging with involuntary manslaughter (shooter was acting recklessly, no intent), prosecutor felt he had better case and it tamps down public outrage. I read shooter here could get 30 years if convicted.
to post 11:
Arguing with the girlfriend of the guy, who was seated in the car, is a far cry different than this guy coming up and pushing the other guy to the ground.
Not saying he’s guilty or not guilty, just pointing out there is a huge distinction between arguing with one person,compared to a second one coming up and knocks a guy down. The driver of the car (if) parked illegally in a handicap spot started it, sure. But that isn’t bearing on if the shooter had a reasonable fear for his life.
Is the shooter a hothead? He seems to be. Has he demonstrated a difficulty dealing w/ others in the past? He does seem to. Does the victim have any criminal history? Don’t know. Does any of that apply to this charge? No.
There should be laws controlling who can/cannot park in a handicapped spot.
I don’t think he will be convicted unless the jury decides that “two wrongs make a right” and convicts as some sort of “justice equalizer”. This shouldn’t even be charged.
@yourmomma : You make great points, but this situation is under Florida law.
If the shooter had started out by yelling “fighting words” as defined under Florida law, then this might be a different case from a legal standpoint.
I saw a “legal expert” in an interview back when this first happened that stated that if the victim had pulled out a gun and shot the guy instead of pushing him down, he could have claimed it was done to protect himself and his family under FL’s “Stand your Ground” law. However, when he pushed the guy down, the balance shifted and now the guy on the ground had the ability to claim that he was in imminent danger.
Which leads me to believe there will be a not guilty verdict, but convinced that these types of laws are absurdly broad and easily misused.
This is a close call, but I think the shooter will get off. As noted above, the “victim” advanced towards him as he was seated (after being violently thrown down) and only appeared to retreat a little when the gun came out. Again, as noted above, one doesn’t change one’s state of mind in an instant, and state of mind is key to the defense here.
I have immediate family who are retired police officers. Based on long experience with violent criminals, police departments often train their officers to draw their weapons if a perpetrator approaches within 50-60 feet (that distance can be closed within 3 seconds, and average weapons draw and related decisionmaking are approximately up to 2 seconds).
People mention that the shooter has had previous incidents. There is no record I have seen of an arrest, and the reports may or may not be credible. On the other hand, the “victim” has had actual arrests (and I believe convictions) for drugs and “aggravated battery” (assault), among other crimes. In any event, although I don’t purport to be an expert on Florida criminal law, generally evidence of a defendant’s character and previous incidents are not admissible under the character and “prior bad acts” doctrines and related evidentiary rules. Note that usually the defendant has a bit more leeway here - the shooter might be able to introduce evidence of the prior crimes (or allegations of crimes) of the “victim,” though it would probably be unwise (prosecutor could then introduce sob story rebuttal evidence to show that the “victim” was actually a wonderfully upstanding citizen and peaceful guy) and/or unnecessary (the video evidence is dispositive as to the issue of assault and lesser included offenses).
Should be interesting to watch how this unfolds. We know a Hispanic woman who, while home alone in a large upscale house, recently used her gun to deter a break-in by a black criminal, but fortunately for all involved she didn’t have to fire. Without the protection afforded by SYG, that encounter might have gone very differently. She had plenty of time to prepare. She heard the criminal attempting to jimmy the door, called 911, and waited with her gun trained on the point of entry. The criminal retreated and was later caught by police. Remember the old adage, folks, “when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.”
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html is Florida’s law on the subject.
Note that many states have similar justifiable homicide laws, or have decided in courts similar principles.
However, it does seem that some people in Florida believe or claim that it covers a greater range of circumstances that justify the use of deadly force than it actually does.
Why are the race/ethnicity of the people involved relevant?
That looks more like a “castle doctrine” situation (“stand your ground” inside your home; many states have it, but it is often treated differently from cases outside your home). Did Florida not have “castle doctrine” before 2005?
Florida’s “castle doctrine” law is at http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=776.013&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html .