<p>My son, who is a strong student with a true thirst for learning, plans a career doing original research in genetics with a focus on longevity, wants to do a lot of undergrad research, and is currently selecting which undergrad school to attend with the ultimate goal of his undergrad learning being to obtain a graduate school position in one of the top university genetics labs focusing on longevity.</p>
<p>Currently, he has been accepted to the University of Illinois in Urbana/Champaign, the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, and the University of Chicago. While the University of Illinois is a good school for genetics, we were told that undergrad research opportunities are limited and very competitive to obtain, especially for freshmen. The University of Alabama doesnt offer as much in the way of genetics, but we were told that undergrad research was easily available to those who sought it, including freshmen. The University of Chicago is also a good school for genetics, but we dont have a real feel yet for undergrad research opportunities.</p>
<p>Will his goal of obtaining a graduate school position in one of the top university genetics labs focusing on longevity be significantly disadvantaged (relative to going to either the U of I or U of C) if he does his undergrad at the University of Alabama, assuming that he can do about 7 semesters of undergrad research at the University of Alabama that will not be closely related to what he wants to focus on during graduate school? </p>
<p>He has a great scholarship to the University of Alabama that will cover all cost except for about $4000/year. It will cost about $60,000 more to obtain his undergrad degree at the U of I and about $135,000 more to obtain his undergrad degree at the U of C, with most or all of those cost differences having to be covered with loans.</p>
<p>In terms of education, University of Chicago hands down. I’m a 4th year Biology Major, Genetics concentration at the college and the academic preparation in genetics here is unbeatable. I’ve been working in a lab since freshman year and have been fortunate to get acceptances into multiple top5 Biology PhD programs and I owe that largely to my academic preparation and the ease of getting into a research lab where I could conduct independent research. There are so many opportunities for research here; professors want motivated students in their labs. One of the huge advantages that the school has is the numerous advanced electives we offer and the small classes in these electives. I took at least 5 great electives that had 5-7 students in them; the personal interaction with the professors is priceless. As I interviewed at grad schools these past few months and chatted with other interviewees, I realized how rare this situation is at other schools. As for research opportunities, the most someone has to do is send an e-mail to the professor of their bio class or an e-mail to a professor that you’re interested in working with. If your son comes, ensure he takes the AP5 Bio Honors sequence his first year.</p>
<p>Of course, that is all said independent of finances. 135,000 is a lot of money (understatement of the year), and if he’s going to have to take personal loans out for that, I would advise against it. If his goal is academia, it’s going to be a while (read: 15+ years) before he can even start making dents in that. I’m going to graduate with about 20,000 in personal debt and even that worries me sometimes.</p>
<p>I would pick University of Alabama because his interests now won’t necessarily be what he enjoys in the future. The school is large, has plenty of research opportunities and is much cheaper than the other schools. Graduate schools want relevant research experience and coursework in order to show you really know what you are getting into, but otherwise the specific topic does not have to match. The important thing for him is to maintain a good GPA and do very well in his research lab (s).</p>
<p>With a 10-year repayment schedule, you or your child would owe $1,700 a month. If your child couldn’t make the payment for whatever reason, YOU would be held financially responsible as the co-signer. That is an absolutely CRIPPLING debt load.</p>
<p>Then remember that your child is going to be making very little money during his graduate studies, and likely will not be able to make any payments for five or more years after his undergraduate graduation. Even with a Ph.D, he may be in low-paid postdoc positions for a year or more. All the while, interest is building up. Genetics researchers are not burger-flippers, but they don’t make mega-bucks either.</p>
<p>Do not allow your son to saddle your family with a debt that could follow all of you around for the rest of your lives.</p>
<p>The absolute most anyone should borrow for undergraduate studies is about $25,000.</p>
<p>The OP didn’t say that the son would have to borrow that much money. The family may have started saving early enough to offset some or all of that. It may depend on what the parents want to absorb. In fact, if UChicago is full-freight, my guess is that the family has enough assets to cover a significant portion of the costs.</p>
<p>We were faced with a similar situation when my daughter was accepted to college: free tuition (not room and board and other fees, so it wasn’t a full ride) at a good university near home or near full-freight at all the others. While it may seem like a no-brainer to most, it wasn’t, primarily because of what she wanted to study (and yes, that changed dramatically) and the different types of learning environments. Because we had saved for 18 years, we had a significant portion of the cost put away, so while we would feel the pinch if she went to one of the expensive options, we knew we could handle it. We gave her the opportunity to make her case for the college she wanted most to attend over the free tuition one. Her case was compelling, and even now that she’s in graduate school and has changed her initial interests (East Asian Studies to Neuroscience), we feel strongly that we made the right choice. The sacrifices were worth it. The kind of education she received emphasized qualities that prepared her for graduate school even though she did not attend a research university. (She attended a top LAC.) My husband and I know enough about higher education to know that even the brightest student can tank and that the best way to minimize this chance is to put them in an academic environment that both fits their personality and challenges them. In your case, that may be University of Alabama, the least expensive option, or University of Chicago, the most.</p>
<p>When it comes to applying to graduate school, University of Chicago is going to be the most impressive and the best equipped to advise your son through the process – provided he does well and takes advantage of the opportunities. (UChicago has a unique curriculum that can eat and spit out some students, so he should be sure he likes it.) But that doesn’t mean he can’t get a great education or get into a top graduate program from Alabama or Urbana. Students do it all the time. UIUC is well-known in scientific circles, of course, and has excellent labs on site. I know less about Alabama, but I’m sure that opportunities will make him a strong candidate as well.</p>
<p>In short, there’s no easy answer to all this. It depends a lot on what happens in the next four years. Your choice should be made based on family finances and your son’s gut feelings about which would be the best place for him. Whatever you do, don’t saddle your family with enormous debt – make sure you and your son can handle the debt of his choice. Reasonable debt is to be expected. Outrageous debt is not.</p>
<p>FWIW, our son felt good about the Honors College at University of Alabama when we visited, not as good about the U of I, and we have only “self-toured” the U of C, so he doesn’t really have any feel for how he would fit in, but from what I have read here and elsewhere I think he would be a good fit with U of C. I think he would do well Alabama and U of C, but am less confident about the U of I. </p>
<p>I am not hearing anyone say that U of C would provide enough of an advantage to take on the amount of loans we would need to finance our son’s education there, even though it is a very good school and has a lot to offer for his specific interest.</p>
<p>Our assests for college consist of 6 semesters of pre-paid tuition to the U of I, which can be applied to other schools, with the amount being based on the average tuition for all of the four years state colleges in Illinois. Two semesters of the pre-paid tuition would cover his cost for all four years at Alabama. I am wondering if he couldn’t supplement his research experience at Alabama with summer research experiences at other Universities whose labs that are doing work more closely related to his desired genetics/longevity focus.</p>
<p>I stand corrected. That’s very unusual for a private university like UChicago to not meet need. NYU – yes, they do that all the time. But UChicago? I hadn’t heard of that before.</p>
<p>Yes, he can supplement his research at other universities over the summer. REUs are located all over the US, and many pay cover both housing and a stipend.</p>
<p>I found out this morning that U of C’s financial offer was based on the estimates we filed last November, which turned out to differ significantly from what turned out to be reality. I had assumed they looked at the FAFSA form we filed at the end of Jan. this year which was much more accurate, but even though it is available they don’t look at it for the EA deferred then accepted kids like my son. At their suggestion, we will be sending in an appeal so that they will look at the more accurate numbers and other details that aren’t provided in the FAFSA form.</p>
<p>Follow the money, especially for undergrad. If money weren’t an obstacle, U Chicago would be the clear standout, not just for genomics and research opportunities, but for the overall liberal arts education and opportunities in such a fantastic city. However, UChicago’s crazy expensive and the BEST thing a young student can do is make sure they stay debt-free as long as possible. If he’s serious about grad school, encourage him to be a seriously great student at State U, take advantage of any lab opportunity and professor mentorship and save $$ for when he’s living on a graduate stipend.</p>
<p>Graduating debt-free or with manageable debt is the ideal way to go. I’d rule out UIUC because your son didn’t really like it, which gives you a choice between a high cost school and a low cost one. If UChicago doesn’t offer better FA after a review of your documents, then Alabama will serve him well, both financially and academically. But even if UChicago gives your son a better FA package, it’s unlikely that the cost will be as low as Alabama’s, mostly because UChicago’s FA will be based solely on need while Alabama’s FA sounds as though it is part merit. </p>
<p>BTW, your son does not have to specialize in genetics as an undergraduate. All he has to do is prepare for graduate studies in the field, so courses in genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry, math – all standard undergraduate courses – will prepare him. If he does research at his school in, say, molecular biology and does one or more more genetically focused summer programs, he should be well-prepared for graduate school. Still, all this is premature since his focus could change dramatically in the next few years.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone for the additional responses. I agree that the most important part of an undergrad education is the effort a student puts into it. My son is a very dedicated student who places a high value on learning, so I think he will obtain a great education with any of the options he has available. Part of our concern was relative weight the labs he will be applying to place on his undergrad institution and the specific subject matter of his undergrad research experience. If he holds true to his current plan, I think there will be only be a handful of university labs focusing on what he will desire for his graduate work.</p>
<p>As for all of this being premature, I understand that he might change his mind and that must be considered together with his current plans. Because he has always been fascinated with the idea of improving longevity, loves biology, and has a personality that is suited for research, there is some likelihood that he won’t change his mind. </p>
<p>Thanks for the heads up on HudsonAlpha! I don’t see a direct affiliation with UA Tuscaloosa, but the President is an UA Tuscaloosa grad and has followed a career path like my son currently dreams of. Seems like a great opportunity for summer research.</p>
<p>I think that for a science career, going to the school with the bigger research foot-print is important. Not having access to as many labs in one’s field of interest can be very limiting, and schools that are not at the very top often have smaller departments, and research that is frankly less exciting (mostly due to less overall funding).</p>
<p>In my case, I chose to go to my state school, which is a top 10 public university. I turned down full ride offers from lesser schools, because the access to research resources would simply not have been comparable there. I think that the advantage of UofC is too great to turn down. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that your son can work to supplement costs, and merit based scholarships are available to upper division students who make the effort to apply to them (most dont!) I also worked every summer through labs or internships to earn money to help with tuition. This was work that both brought in money and helped further my research experience.</p>
<p>I believe that in science the greater research institution takes immediate advantage, and there are more opportunities to earn income while in undergrad than it would be for students who choose other fields.</p>
<p>DanyTarg, working in research labs for the summer won’t offset $130,000 worth of loans. Even if he manages to earn, in aggregate, $30,000 from summer jobs (and that’s a high estimate), he’s still looking at an absolutely enormous, six-figure debt load upon graduation.</p>
<p>Then while he’s in graduate school, all those loans will be sitting in deferral status for five years or more, accruing interest that will be tacked onto the balance of the loan.</p>
<p>Then, on completion of a Ph.D, even if he gets a $60,000-per-year job right out of the box, about half of his after-tax paycheck will be going straight to debt payments for the next decade.</p>
<p>I agree with polarscribe. In grad school you make very little money. As a post-doc, its not much better-- and at that point you actually have to start paying your loans. Grad school stipends and post doc fellowships are enough to support an individual- but not enough to have lots left over. Paying for $100,000 in loans on a $40,000 job isn’t going to be all that much fun. You do not go into science grad school for the money, so while there may be very legitimate reasons to choose the more expensive school for undergrad if you can afford it— and going to chicago will probably have some benefit, make it slightly easier to get into grad school, and get you better contacts— it is NOT something worth taking on that much debt for.</p>
<p>edited to add- the vast majority of summer programs give you stipends of about $3000 for the summer, which when you include housing and food for the summer mean that you make very little money.</p>
<p>I don’t care if you’re going into a lucrative career. The burden of huge debt at the beginning of your career can be crippling. Although the economic situation has tempered some of this, I used to see a lot of CC students saying that $200,000 in debt was “worth it” because they expected to earn $100,000 upon graduation and could pay it off in a couple of years – forgetting, of course, that taxes, living expenses, and interest had to come out of that imaginary $100,000. </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong. Education is worth sacrificing for, but there should be a limit to the sacrifice, especially when there are lower cost alternatives. A lot also depends on what the parents can absorb. Some middle-class parents are at the point in their lives when they can assume a loan of $50,000 or so (think of how many families buy two cars on credit), but the student is another matter. Paying off large loans can be crushing when you’re just starting out.</p>
<p>The reason Princeton University started using grants and work study only in its FA packages, to ensure that every student graduated debt-free, is because a study showed that students with debt were hampered in their careers. They were forced to choose jobs over graduate school – and then jobs that paid well, even if they weren’t interested in those jobs. Those with debt were less likely to give back to the community. Of course, supremely wealthy universities can afford to make that commitment. Most cannot. It’s up to parents and students to manage the debt the best they can.</p>
<p>So yes, all things being equal, UChicago is the best choice (as long as the student likes it.) But things are far from equal. The OP’s family has to put a personal price on the value of a UChicago education, something they can handle, and if UChicago fails to meet that, then Alabama is an excellent choice.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, while I agree $120k+ in loans is too much, I’ve been paying my undergrad loans (which are in the medium five figures) while in grad school, and will have them mostly paid off by the time I defend my thesis. </p>
<p>There’s no reason a biological sciences grad student can’t begin to pay off student loans while in grad school, while those loans are in deferral – biological sciences stipends are quite generous relative to most grad school stipends.</p>
<p>I guess I’m not convinced by the 130K in loans price tag. Tuition alone for 4 years (predicting a rise in tuition over time) may be 130K at sticker price, but I find it hard to imagine that a middle-class family would end up paying sticker price at this rate. It is also possible to graduate in 3.5, or even 3 years with enough focus, and while summer work may not pay tuition it can certainly cover the majority of living expenses if one is frugal with spending (corporate internships will pay about $7500 for a summer, and govt internships average $5000…which come out as more if you extend the internships beyond the typical 10-12 week length). Meanwhile, one form of financial aid provided by universities is work-study, which can take the form of lab-work.</p>
<p>While I would not encourage anyone to take on 130K in debt for undergrad, I think that with some creative financing (early graduation, scholarships, work-study) this can be reduced to a much more manageable amount, at least half of the original number. Meanwhile, graduate stipends are hardly penurious–he would absolutely be able to afford making payments while in graduate school</p>
<p>I know I didnt take as full advantage of such aid as I could have, but if I, with a 3.5 overall gpa, and a 3.1 major gpa was able to earn merit scholarships from my department, then a student more academically focused than I was can certainly do even better. Meanwhile, friends I knew who had 3.9+ gpas received generous scholarships from my school that they never even applied for. A little work and dedication can go a long way towards making undergrad affordable, and we’re talking a science major, not a lib arts degree that the students will be hard-pressed to find a paying job with.</p>
<p>Bottom line: 130K for a science undergrad may be the sticker price, but if you actually pay that much as a middle-class american citizen, you’re doing something wrong.</p>