Undergraduate BME and Mathematics Ranks for my Shortlist Schools

College Search & Lists
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<p>“Alex, what makes you so sure the USNWR differs from the “reality on the ground”? UNSWR is considered by most informed and uninformed people to be the foremost expert on ranking American’s colleges and universities. I understand you are not a fan of it because Michigan can never crack the top 20(this year 25), but you are clearly in the minority on the matter. Cal is not a top 10 university. With regards to strength of graduate programs, it is top 3 school without doubt. For undergrads, it is a fringe top 25 institution at best.”</p>

<p>I never trusted the USNWR. When I was chosing universities, back in 1991, Michigan was ranked lower than 8 of the 10 universities I was admitted into and I still chose to go there because the people I relied on, such as Harvard, Columbia and Chicago Economics professors, the CEOs of Goldman Sachs (he wasn’t yet CEO, but he was very senior and he was a UIUC alum himself, so he may have had a soft spot for Michigan!) and Banque Paribas (both CEOs were close personal friends of my father’s), my own parents and relatives (among them are Wharton and Columbia MBAs, MIT PhDs etc…) etc… all seemed far better sources than the USNWR. And today, after close to 20 years of studying universities, I consider myself much better informed than anybody working at the USNWR, and I am still learning about universities. It takes decades to learn about universities. One does not simply become an expert in 2 or 4 or even 6 years. Even the USNWR admits that it does not know as much as the experts (universty presidents and deans of undergraduate admissions etc…)</p>

<p>Let us face it, the USNWR relies on sales of magazines, primarily in the NE of the US. 25% of the magazines annual revenues are generated by the College rankings edition, and over half othe cosumers who purchase that particular edition live in the NE of the US. Practically none of the people responsible for the actual ranking attended elite universities and when one that has attended an elite university joins the team, her/his alma matter mysteriously LEAPS in the rankings. I am not going to mention any names or point fingers though!</p>

<p>“Duke is clearly better than Brown, Cornell, Cal, John Hopkins and Northwestern.”</p>

<p>Not according to those who are well educated and have actually taken the time to research universities. And those who aren’t well educated or haven’t taken the time to investigate properly don’t care abvout university rankings and recognition. Duke is clearly a top 20 university, most likely a top 15 university and arguably a top 10 university, same as Brown, Cornell, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern. I have yet to see true evidence that proves that Duke is clearly better than Brown, Cornell, Cal, JHU or Northwestern.</p>

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<p>Again with the prestige? And that Gallup poll is a load of nonsense. Know why those schools are there? Harvard is obvious, but the majority of those schools are on there because of their sports.</p>

<p>And as for your bit about the employers not knowing, I beg to differ. Employers will get a different view because they can directly observe and evaluate the products of those schools, as opposed to knowing their sports teams like your Average Joe. </p>

<p>One example that comes to mind is how I got my summer internship. I mentioned to the guy who hired me that I will be going to Rice, and he mentioned how he knew a couple of grads from there and knew that it was a good school that produced smart graduates. The only other person who knew Rice (not for its baseball rep) here in my SoCal town was another engineer, working for Chevron I think, a Cornell grad. A small sample, to be sure, but then again, that poll surveyed 1000 people nationwide.</p>

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<p>

I lived and worked in Houston for over 10 years so I should know. In Texas, your Rice degree is gold, and if you go to A&M, you are an Aggie … worlds of difference. </p>

<p>

Just curious - how many of you know where your doctor earned his/her first degree? … But if you are one of the lucky ones with a “prestigious” BS degree from Duke, you would of course hang your Blue Devil Diploma over your HMS diploma…</p>

<p>

Why don’t you ask your heroine, hawlette, of her opinion on Rice?</p>

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<p>

What makes you think you’re more knowledgeable than people working at the USNWR whose very JOB it is to research higher education? I feel like you’re selling these esteemed individuals short. I feel like the educated individuals you talked to only informed you of the reputation of universities based on their graduate prestige, which I deem to be very different from undergraduate excellence. Most of those high-level businessmen and academicians did years of graduate school and did grad school most recently, so they are more well-versed on grad school reputations.</p>

<p>I believe that my friends and I are more informed than the Goldman Sachs CEO and some MIT PhD about the quality of undergraduate education offered across American universities. I have relevant, first-hand accounts of undergrad at every top 50 school based on friends and cousins who have RECENTLY attended.</p>

<p>

Then how come USNWR(premier US college ranking system), the QS World Ranking(premier European college ranking system), the Hangzhou Ranking(premier Chinese college ranking system) all agree that Duke is superior to all those schools?</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Hangzhou ranking? What the crap is that? The only Chinese ranking (Jiaotong) ranks Duke somewhere around 25th for US. </p>

<p>The fact that you rely so much on rankings imply that you know nothing about colleges in reality.</p>

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<p>“What makes you think you’re more knowledgeable than people working at the USNWR whose very JOB it is to research higher education?”</p>

<p>Because it is my job too, and I am better at it than they are.</p>

<p>“I feel like you’re selling these esteemed individuals short.”</p>

<p>Not really, they are ignorant, irresponsible and incompetent, which explains why their ranking is completely unacceptable to the majority of the academic community.</p>

<p>“I feel like the educated individuals you talked to only informed you of the reputation of universities based on their graduate prestige, which I deem to be very different from undergraduate excellence. Most of those high-level businessmen and academicians did years of graduate school and did grad school most recently, so they are more well-versed on grad school reputations.”</p>

<p>Nobody separates graduate from undergraduate “prestige”. A university either is prestigious or it isn’t. </p>

<p>“I believe that my friends and I are more informed than the Goldman Sachs CEO and some MIT PhD about the quality of undergraduate education offered across American universities. I have relevant, first-hand accounts of undergrad at every top 50 school based on friends and cousins who have RECENTLY attended.”</p>

<p>You are entitled to your opinion ring<em>of</em>fire. I guess I could have asked my fellow high school classmates and recent high school graduates for their opinions, but I was more interested in the opinions of professors at PhD programs I may (and did) one day apply to or CEOs of IBanks I was planning on working for (and did) after college. To each his own I suppose.</p>

<p>“Then how come USNWR(premier US college ranking system), the QS World Ranking(premier European college ranking system), the Hangzhou Ranking(premier Chinese college ranking system) all agree that Duke is superior to all those schools?”</p>

<p>First of all, those rankings are all pathetic. But according to the QS, Johns Hopkins and Cornell are practically tied with Duke. But that ranking would lead one to believe that Cornell, Duke, Johns Hopkins and other peer schools are equal to Stanford, and that is not the case. And I never heard of the Hangzhou ranking. The only Chinese ranking I was aware of is the Jio Tong rankings, which again ranks Cal, Cornell, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern on par with Duke. According to those two international ratings, Duke is peers with the following universities:</p>

<p>QS (ranking among US universities):</p>

<h1>4 Chicago</h1>

<h1>7 Penn</h1>

<h1>9 Duke</h1>

<h1>9 Johns Hopkins</h1>

<h1>11 Cornell</h1>

<h1>13 Michigan</h1>

<h1>15 Brown</h1>

<h1>17 Northwestern</h1>

<h1>18 Cal</h1>

<p>SJTU Ranking (ranking among US universities):</p>

<h1>3 Cal</h1>

<h1>8 Chicago</h1>

<h1>10 Cornell</h1>

<h1>13 Penn</h1>

<h1>17 Johns Hopkins</h1>

<h1>18 Michigan</h1>

<h1>23 Northwestern</h1>

<h1>25 Duke</h1>

<p>Neither ranking is good if you ask me, but neither one proves that Duke is “clearly” better than the rest of the peers listed.</p>

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<p>

Ray,
SJTU is in Shanghai, only 175 km from Hangzhou… so ring wasn’t far off.</p>

<p>SJTU ranks Duke a lowly #32 overall, behind UDub(17), Wisconsin(17), UIUC(26) and Minnesota(28), so you don’t want to go there. Duke ranks even lower in Science/Math (52-76) and Engineering (51-75) so you certainly don’t want to go there.</p>

<p>QS ranks Duke a lofty #13 overall (tied with JHU), behind Chicago(8), Columbia(10) and Penn(11), but ahead of Cornell(15), Stanford(17) and Michigan (18).</p>

<p>However, you don’t want to go there for Natural Science/Math as Duke ranks a lowly #79, behind Penn State(59) and Purdue(67).</p>

<p>Or Technology. Duke is outside the Top 100.</p>

<p>Duke fares better in Social Sciences (#26), barely behind Cornell(17), Michigan(20), Penn(22) and NYU(23);</p>

<p>And in Art/Humanities: Duke at #21 is behind Cornell(14), NYU(15) and Michigan(19)</p>

<p>In Life Sciences/Biomedicine: Duke(#21) is behind UCSD(9), UCLA(11), Cornell(18) and Columbia(20).</p>

<p>The QS ranking says one should go to UCB which is 2nd ranked in most of these fields and no worse than #4.</p>

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<p>@ring<em>of</em>fire:</p>

<p>First of all, the Gallup Poll you cited is outdated… created in 2003. A lot changes in six years… not much, but reputations still change. Secondly, this is the poll of the GENERAL PUBLIC. Gallup even admits it: “from time to time Gallup measures what colleges the general public considers to be the best in the nation.” Sure, I bet there were some educated, intelligent people who responded, but I bet the majority of the responses were from the average American who only know of HYPSM and of their state schools. This Gallup poll is not a poll of educated individuals. These respondents also tend to know of most of these schools through athletics. Seriously, Penn State, Ohio State, Texas A&M above Columbia, Brown, and Cornell? Give me a break!</p>

<p>One of the conclusions of the report was as follows: “The very highly rated California Institute of Technology, Dartmouth College, and Washington University in St. Louis, all in the top 10 in the U.S. News ratings, are mentioned by less than 1% of the general population.” Just because certain elite colleges, like Rice and these others, did not make this list does not mean that they are unknown outside of their region (they are not merely regional schools). Employers certainly know about CalTech, Dartmouth, and probably WashU throughout the country. This is just one poll, and you cannot make your lofty generalizations based only one poll. </p>

<p>Anyway, both Rice and Duke are great schools. However, I feel that you personally cannot say that Rice is unknown outside of Texas because you do not know Rice well enough to make such claims; you only heard of Rice during your first year at Duke. I have known of Rice for the past 3 and a half years. In addition, Schee10 and I have researched Rice very deeply, have talked to a countless number of friends, relatives, and others about the school, and have discovered that people know and respect Rice outside of Texas, even in places like California and Ohio. Sure, it is not as well known as Duke, but it is definitely known outside of Texas.</p>

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<p>

Then why don’t we see the “2009 Alexandre Ranking of Global Universities” in our local Barnes & Noble bookstores? They aren’t perfect, but the researchers at USNWR have established themselves as the authorities of higher education, especially at the undergraduate level. No one’s going to stop listening to them and start listening to you.</p>

<p>

Oh really? Do you have any proof of this? Their ranking generally falls in line what most educated posters including yourself believe to be the order of the top universities in the country. They are definitely the best ranking group out there besides the Huazhong rankins, which admittedly are unknown and not respected.</p>

<p>

This is false based on my experiences. Going to Michigan Law School or a Berkeley Engineering Masters Program is a totally different animal than going to either of these schools for undergrad. The naive and uneducated might not notice, but educated individuals such as myself know the difference and will be a lot more impressed by the Michigan Law school candidate than the regular LSA student.</p>

<p>We all know that Michigan has a 50% acceptance rate for undergrad and a sub 10% acceptance rate AMONG the nation’s top scholars for Law, Med and Biz school. We aren’t fools here Alexandre.</p>

<p>If you tell me you went to Cal or UMich, I always make sure to clarify what division to gain context of the individual. I imagine every educated person does the same.</p>

<p>

Well, I knew all my schools provided excellent postgraduate and professional opportunities, so I really wanted to get the input for current or recently graduated students (which I did) to ensure that I got a top-notch, personalized education with plenty of opportunities to do research, study abroad and do community service so I can be well positioned for the future (which I am, I work at one of the MBB consulting giants).</p>

<p>

The only international rankings I trust are the Huazhong and QS ones. They rank Duke above these so-called “peer” schools. The Jio Tong ranking is a total sham and I am sure you feel the same way.</p>

<p>According to Huazhong,
[Top</a> 100 among American Universities](<a href=“http://www.hust.edu.cn/english/link/oversea/abroad/top100American.htm]Top”>http://www.hust.edu.cn/english/link/oversea/abroad/top100American.htm)
Duke: #6
Northwestern: #12
Cornell: #14
Johns Hopkins University: #15
Brown: #17
Cal: #21
Michigan: #25</p>

<p>This is the BEST college ranking I have ever seen and the only reason I heard about is because a family friend of a classmate works at the university and showed me the ranking which he mentions was compiled specifically for undergrad.</p>

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</p>

<p>Are you saying they are the only ones you trust because they’re the only ones that support your belief that Duke is better?</p>

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</p>

<p>… wow.</p>

<p>I’m speechless. Huazhong ranking? That’s a carbon copy of the USNews ranking! And by the looks of it, it dates from 2002-2004.</p>

<p>Are all Duke students as… observant as you are?</p>

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<p>It’s not a carbon copy, although it was based heavily on USNews. The ties are broken!;)</p>

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<p>^ If you like USNEWS, at least look at the current list.</p>

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<p>“Then why don’t we see the “2009 Alexandre Ranking of Global Universities” in our local Barnes & Noble bookstores? They aren’t perfect, but the researchers at USNWR have established themselves as the authorities of higher education, especially at the undergraduate level. No one’s going to stop listening to them and start listening to you.”</p>

<p>Simple ring<em>of</em>fire, I am not interested in publishing rankings. I rate universities for my clients, not for publication. </p>

<p>“Oh really? Do you have any proof of this? Their ranking generally falls in line what most educated posters including yourself believe to be the order of the top universities in the country.”</p>

<p>You are not among the most educated posters. About 15% of the regular posters on this website have graduate degrees from top programs. And my oroginal comments was aimed at the academic community (university professors, intellectual elite etc…), not the educated masses.</p>

<p>"This is false based on my experiences. Going to Michigan Law School or a Berkeley Engineering Masters Program is a totally different animal than going to either of these schools for undergrad. The naive and uneducated might not notice, but educated individuals such as myself know the difference and will be a lot more impressed by the Michigan Law school candidate than the regular LSA student.</p>

<p>We all know that Michigan has a 50% acceptance rate for undergrad and a sub 10% acceptance rate AMONG the nation’s top scholars for Law, Med and Biz school. We aren’t fools here Alexandre.</p>

<p>If you tell me you went to Cal or UMich, I always make sure to clarify what division to gain context of the individual. I imagine every educated person does the same."</p>

<p>Not really, the knowlegdeable does not differentiate and applies equal respect to all top universities. The petty and shallow try to differentiate where they are is no basis for segregation.</p>

<p>“Well, I knew all my schools provided excellent postgraduate and professional opportunities, so I really wanted to get the input for current or recently graduated students (which I did) to ensure that I got a top-notch, personalized education with plenty of opportunities to do research, study abroad and do community service so I can be well positioned for the future (which I am, I work at one of the MBB consulting giants).”</p>

<p>Good for you. You could have accomplished exactly that at roughly 20 universities and 10 LACs, including the schools we listed above as Duke’s peers.</p>

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<p>

This so-called “Huazhong ranking” is an EXACT COPY of USNWR’s 2004 ranking. Btw, if you click on any one of the schools, it will bring you to the USNWR site for that school.</p>

<p>Huazhong never claims to rank US universities. It merely provides an information link for the top 100 US universities (according to USNWR in 2004), just as the link it provides to the “Top 100 British Universities in 2003” by Financial Times ([::Links::](<a href=“http://www.hust.edu.cn/english/link/oversea/default.htm]::Links::[/url]”>http://www.hust.edu.cn/english/link/oversea/default.htm)</a>).</p>

<p>ring, you’ve been had. Your family friend didn’t know diddly about university rankings. The “QS World University Rankings” is clearly an OVERALL ranking instead of purely undergraduate education as you claimed. Look at the methodology:</p>

<p>1) 20% is on “Citations per faculty”
2) postgraduate students are included in the “FTE students” count and “international factors”
3) The survey for “Academic peer review” (40% weight) asks each reviewer to pick the top research programs in each category:
<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/methodology/peer_review/[/url]”>http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/methodology/peer_review/&lt;/a&gt; … see "click here to preview Academic Peer Review Survey) … and here’s one of the questions (<a href=“http://research.qsnetwork.com/qs_surveysystem/index.php?viewonly&order=normal&partnerset=0&survey=52&jump_to_section=9):%5B/url%5D”>http://research.qsnetwork.com/qs_surveysystem/index.php?viewonly&order=normal&partnerset=0&survey=52&jump_to_section=9):</a></p>

<p>“Natural Sciences
Please select up to thirty universities you regard as producing the best research in the NATURAL SCIENCES subject area”</p>

<p>and these are the only questions in the survey.</p>

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<p>Can someone please answer my question in post #29?</p>

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<p>I would not get a non-ABET certified engineering degree.</p>