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<p>Hmm. Does that say anything about the need for a PhD in the social sciences? Its sort of weird to me that colleges feel they have to go to <em>extreme</em> international lengths to <em>find</em> PhD candidates. If there was a paying demand for Americans with those degrees, and it made financial sense for individuals to spend that many years of one’s life being a student, it is hard to believe there wouldn’t be plenty of Americans wanting to pursue that route.</p>
<p>I understand your point, but I don’t see what you expect the individual person to do. It’s bad that a Nahuatl speaker has no opportunities in their own country and believes that they’ll be better off here, or that they’ll be able to earn money here and remit it back there. But that Nahuatl speaker is right: they will be better off here.</p>
<p>It’s horrific that a mother thinks her son will be killed by drug lords if he stays in Honduras, so she makes the awful decision to send him on a perilous journey to the United States. But if her other son, or some neighbor boy, has already been murdered by the drug gangs, she’s right: her son is in danger either way, but in less danger if he goes than if he stays.</p>
<p>NYmom: Of course there are some Americans applying, but not enough to fill all the spots.</p>
<p>They don’t stay in research or academia because they make more $$ elsewhere. That’s why my good students go for an MBA or Law School instead of a PhD: only two years, less math, and they think they’ll make more money. I understand why your acquaintance was sad, I feel the same way.</p>
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Do you really not get that what I expect is for our government and theirs to do right by these actual human beings? I don’t get paid to do what I do, I do it because I care passionately for the people and their plight. I think the status quo is very harmful and I refuse to accept and say that a life as a second class citizen in a place where they don’t speak the language or share the culture is all that some people have a right to expect. And you don’t know whether each individual is in less or more danger when coming across the border. There are an awful lot of dead bodies buried there, and the gangs and cartels are coming to a town near you – if they aren’t there already. This is a failure of multiple governments and shouldn’t be tolerated. But it is because so many benefit so much from others’ misery, and still others like to think of themselves as compassionate because they’re fine with the absolutely wretched situation as it exists now. It isn’t compassionate. Not even a little bit.</p>
<p>I want their government to do right by them, just as you do. But their government is not doing right by them, as I’m sure you agree. Given that’s the case, what should the individual do?</p>
<p>And when you say it’s a failure of multiple governments and should not be tolerated, again I agree. What form is my non-toleration of the corrupt government of Honduras supposed to take?</p>
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<p>If I remember correctly this “hefty” fee is 2K or something, right? I’m saying do away with all work-visa programs and all paths to citizenship other than a 30K/year indefinite payment (or maybe ending at age 67) or a 500K one time payment to the US (not the E1-B of 500K investment). We’ll still get the educated ones that are really desirable, because the company looking to hire them will pay the 30K if they’re worth it. Hell, sell citizenship for it. There’s plenty of wealthy people in other countries who would rather be wealthy in America. </p>
<p>CF,
I think if you are that compassionate and concerned about the people of Honduras, you ought to actively do something about it. Raise money, campaign to raise awareness, sponsor immigrants, etc. People who say we should take them all in, and yet do nothing to rectify the situation are hypocrites, or lazy, or both. Taking them in isn’t going to stop the flow or change the status quo. It will probably only increase it. If they are legitimate asylees, we are already taking them in.</p>
<p>What do you suggest I do that would rectify the situation in Honduras? Raising money and raising awareness for what? In service of what? That is, if I raised money to rectify the situation in Honduras, what would I spend it on? </p>
<p>Schools, shelter, food, medicine, invest in local jobs. Seems pretty obvious since that’s what they are looking for here. </p>
<p>zooser: Yes and no. I do understand that without having direct contact with illegal immigrants, it is almost impossible for me to put myself in their shoes. Which is why I’m asking these questions.</p>
<p>In terms of education: how much have things really changed from the late 1800s and early 1900s? This country has never been set up to educate ESL adults. I guess what I’m trying to understand is how these immigrants are different from the ones who came 100 years ago, who spoke Italian and Polish and Yiddish? Many of them never learned English. But they were here legally, their kids learned English and grew up to become very productive citizens. </p>
<p>In the same vein, many immigrants who came 100 years ago also felt forced and coerced to leave. Jews were killed and their homes destroyed by pogroms in Russia – and those actions forced them to travel to the US. The difference is that 100 years ago they could come legally. Or do I understand you to say that most of today’s illegal immigrants were kidnapped and brought here against their will?</p>
<p>I understand your outrage at their conditions at home, and I am just as outraged. But I don’t see how that outrage can guide US education policy today. First, I’m not sure what the US can do – or whether the US should do anything – about the political and economic situation in their country. And even if those situations improve, it could take years. So the people come to the US, either voluntarily or reluctantly, they are here – what do we do with them? In the case of Dreamers, they’ve been here for years. What do we do with them now? </p>
<p>And I agree with Cardinal Fang’s questions.</p>
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<p>Yeah, everything went downhill in the US after the good ole days in 1848. Slavery was abolished; women got to vote; and free public K-12 became universal.</p>
<p>“terms of education: how much have things really changed from the late 1800s and early 1900s?”
Is that a serious question?</p>
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<p>You are correct in that. The US did deliberately impose racially discriminatry immigration policies like the Chinese Exclusion Act in the late 19th century. But it was eventually repealed.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang, your priorities are your own. I don’t expect you to know my backstory, but my husband is functionally illiterate. Therefore, I have felt compelled to help others become literate. It was an accident of circumstance that led me to an organization that deals with immigrants, mostly illegal. I believe that being unable to read at even a basic level puts people in a position to be exploited and abused. Therefore, I spend as much time as I can doing my part to solve a problem that I view as huge. In the experience of meeting these people, I have come to find the situation intolerable. Therefore, I continue use to assist the people whom I believe to be victimized, but I also write to elected and appointed officials in several countries, I choose to boycott certain countries and their products, and most importantly I speak out to tell people who mean well but might be unfamiliar with the situation what is really going on. Whether you agree with me or not, I hope I have made you (collectively, not personally) think about this issue from a different perspective. As for what you should do, I am sure that you have issues about which you are passionate and informed and do important work. We don’t all have to do the same thing to make a difference.</p>
<p>I admire your passion and your service, zoosermom.</p>
<p>So when you write to elected officials, what do you ask them to do? As to boycotting certain countries’ products, seems like the product we’d want to boycott is drugs brought in from Central America. They’re the root of the problem, but I’m confident you were going to boycott them anyway.</p>
<p>Well I don’t do drugs, so . . .</p>
<p>I ask our elected officials to support investment in partnerships for education and infrastructure in the home countries, rather than amnesty, I ask them to enforce our laws so people won’t be tempted and endangered by coming across the border, I ask them to pressure the home countries to join those partnerships and invest in their own human capital. I write to the home countries and call their elected and appointed leaders racists, crooks and exploiters.</p>
<p>So… we have Honduras. It’s a failed state, run by drug lords. It’s not even obvious to me what the US is supposed to do, when facing a failed state. If I were to write to US officials, asking them to do something about Honduras, I wouldn’t even know what to ask for, given that in terms of the Honduran government there’s no there there.</p>
<p>So then we return to the individual Honduran mother. Pretend you are her. Your older son was killed by drug lords. You think, with considerable justification, that your younger son is in the same jeopardy. You can let him stay around and be murdered, or you can send him away. Wouldn’t you send him away to the US, even if it’s made more difficult and dangerous (and it’s already very difficult and dangerous), when the alternative is another dead child? Lots of unpleasant things are better than death.</p>
<p>CF,
Stop being overly dramatic. If your government doesn’t provide free education, health care, food, police protection and college scholarships, and the US will give it to you if you can make it across the border (with your hands up), you don’t even need a “drug lord” story to understand why Hondurans are coming here.</p>
<p>CardinalFang, I don’t have to imagine, I work with them and listen to such moms. But the thing is that they understand that the violence is coming here, too. Do you really think all those young men are sweet mama’s boys? They aren’t. They are hardcore gangbangers. The crime rates in certain areas are very high. It isn’t my nice middle class son who is the most statistically likely to be impacted, it is the immigrant kids whose dysfunction from home is being replicated here pretty quickly. Also, I know from experience and I have read reputable statistics on the reasons for the migration, and it is much more likely to be economic and to receive permisos than it is to escape gang violence. Additionally, the president is considering a targeted executive order which I support (I know - who do I think I am), that would grant asylum to minor children of legal immigrants from certain countries who are dealing with violence.</p>
<p>I don’t believe in doing nothing, and I do believe that a comprehensive plan for strengthening those home countries would change much. In just the last decade or so, immigration from Mexico decreased significantly and almost reached net zero before political considerations came into play. There were a lot of reasons for that, including falling birth rates and need for labor at home. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted. </p>
<p>You do need a drug lord story, because you need to understand the difference between Honduras and its neighbor Nicaragua. Honduras is sending out child refugees. Nicaragua is receiving child refugees.</p>
<p>The city of San Pedro Sula, Honduras, had a murder rate last year of 187 per 100,000. That’s incredibly high-- it’s worse than a war zone. By no coincidence at all, the most dangerous, murderous cities are also the cities most represented among unaccompanied undocumented child immigrants to the US. </p>