University of Alabama or Liberty University?

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<p>Creekland, you’re a better person than I, I guess. I do discriminate against people who use the cloak of religion to justify hate. I attended a Liberty-like junior high and high school and experienced first-hand how the Bible can be twisted and cherry-picked to support an extremist ideology that is anything but “Christ-like.” Of course as children my classmates and I didn’t have a choice about attending this school, but as adults we have the opportunity (and in my opinion, the responsibility) to look critically at what we were taught and renounce elements of it that are either philosophically inconsistent or morally reprehensible. Years later, many of us have done that. Those who haven’t are not people I would want to associate with at all.</p>

<p>If I were a hiring manager looking at a variety of resumes and one was from a Liberty graduate, I would be wary. If indeed this person still subscribed to the beliefs espoused by Liberty, I would be legitimately concerned about how he or she might fit into a diverse workplace.</p>

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<p>I’m not fond of such people either and it’s why I try to combat hate of all sorts when I can - at school (with teens) or here. I’m not fond of anyone who hates another due to their beliefs regardless of their cloak. That’s what I see going on here when someone says they knew and respected someone until they heard where they graduated from… and admitted the point where they MIGHT disagree had nothing to do with their job or performance. That’s pure prejudice and nothing but it and that’s wrong.</p>

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<p>The most conservative person (religious belief-wise) I know at work graduated from a state U. For hiring purposes, I’d still go by the person and anything there I could get rather than totally stereotyping if the actual work doesn’t depend upon the contents of the degree (like with accounting, etc, since accounting anywhere is the same process).</p>

<p>For the other half of what we’re into (Engineering), we do look at undergrad degrees for any new hires with great preferences for Penn St and Va Tech, but that’s due to the content of the courses for what we do. I wouldn’t think to ask a new hire what they believed about anything religious. It doesn’t apply to our jobs and whatever they believe wouldn’t affect what they do - spaghetti monster or aliens or whatever. If I were hiring for a church (we don’t), then I’d care about their beliefs.</p>

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<p>You’re completely missing the point, Creekland - I think deliberately.</p>

<p>No one is saying it is “wrong” to be religious or that we would be asking job applicants about what their religious faith was. Of course their particular religious faith is irrelevant to the job. </p>

<p>We are saying that we question the caliber of education from a school that deliberately teaches something that is, according to the best science we have today, completely factually incorrect.</p>

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<p>Creekland, you say yourself that you prefer engineering grads of VA Tech or Penn State because of the quality of their coursework/training. By extension, you might assume (and rightfully so) that overall, those two institutions were reputable in other fields as well. That’s the problem with Liberty. Their adherence to quack science in the face of overwhelming factual evidence shows clearly that they are not committed to real education. You are very charitable to assume the accounting grads might be trained as well as those from legitimate educational institutions.</p>

<p>From their website: “Every Liberty professor goes through a rigorous interview process that confirms a born-again relationship with Christ.” Sorry, but that position is antithetical to what I believe a college education should be about.</p>

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<p>That in itself does not particularly trouble me. But the implication - that the professor is then expected to hew to the fundamentalist line on issues of legitimate scholarly inquiry - would be the deal-breaker for me.</p>

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<p>My problem with Liberty U and similar schools is that the whole ploy just seems so politically motivated. Half of the time it doesn’t even seem like these people are actually serious about Christianity; they’re just a bunch of conservatives that created a university that aligns 100% with their set of preconceived beliefs. Here’s a video of Glenn Beck giving the commencement speech at Liberty. Notice how the LU president goes on and on about typical Republican ideals - most of which have nothing to do with Christianity. </p>

<p>[Glenn</a> Beck at LU](<a href=“YouTube”>YouTube)
You’d obviously never see this at a real university.</p>

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<p>@andrew, no you wouldn’t. “…reminding America of its own history and warning its citizens how easily freedom and prosperity can fall prey to tyranny and socialism.”</p>

<p>And they use the Bible as the basis of their claims?!</p>

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<p>No, you are missing the point and probably deliberately.</p>

<p>I am not knocking those who opt to select new hires based upon where they did their undergrad. I used my example to show that this happens and for respectable reasons.</p>

<p>What I am 100% against is your example of how you respected someone due to who he was and what he was doing on the job, then decided to no longer respect him as highly because you found out he did his undergrad (not even his final degree) at a place you disagree with. You’ve said he wasn’t a Bible thumper. You’ve said you don’t even know if he agrees with Liberty’s views. Even if he did on the latter, it wouldn’t affect how he does his job where you are, but you don’t care. You’re simply prejudiced because of what he chooses to believe (if he does) even when it has no bearing on the job at hand.</p>

<p>That’s what’s wrong.</p>

<p>Liberty isn’t a fit for most (myself included), but it is apparently a fit for many. If they train up people to do jobs well, good for them. Where they don’t meet standards, then they are like any other lower academic college academically - with their own fit on all that other stuff.</p>

<p>So they teach Creationism. Sorry, but I just don’t care. There are very few fields where that matters on the job… and where it does, employers can legitimately discriminate. I see it as akin to teaching about Atlantis or other things in history that people argue about. It’s mildly amusing at best, but of no bearing on engineering or accounting or oodles of other things.</p>

<p>So they are far right. So are many in this country. It’s mildly amusing at best, but of no bearing on engineering or accounting or oodles of other things.</p>

<p>So they are religious. So are many in this country… Since I’m also a Christian (though not their denomination), I can relate. It also has no bearing on engineering or accounting or oodles of other things.</p>

<p>You make it seem as if people need to pass a litmus test to do any job out there. That’s blatantly not true except for those who carry a prejudice against those who don’t share their beliefs.</p>

<p>Academically Liberty isn’t high, but they do get some high level students (I know a NMF who went there and then to med school). If a student graduates from there and proves themselves worthy, there’s no need to discriminate any more than if they started at Podunk U. They’ll have a harder time getting started (just like grads of Podunk U), but those who do it are probably quite good and should be respected after they’ve proven themselves. The rest will find their niches just like everyone eventually does.</p>

<p>AND, the OP was talking about needing a degree just to have a degree to apply for a non-science, non religious job after having been working on the job and having experience. Around here, it wouldn’t matter one iota where that degree came from - Harvard or U Phoenix - as what’s going to count is job performance on the job. For a new hire, it would matter. There is a difference.</p>

<p>I’m now done with this thread… I can’t think of any way to restate my point and it should be easily understandable for anyone who cares. As much as I’d love to totally eliminate intolerance, I can’t, and I accept that. The best I can do is point it out and how ludicrous it is when I see it. (And yes, I won’t say that Liberty as a U is tolerant… but I’m not talking about that. There are quite a few liberal colleges that also aren’t tolerant, but we aren’t talking about those either. I’m talking about individuals… see above. Both ultra conservative and ultra liberal “believers” are out there and both have a right to their beliefs without discrimination when what they believe has no bearing on their jobs.)</p>

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<p>Interesting that LU had Glenn Beck and Romney as speakers…both are Mormons. </p>

<p>Anyway, it would be interesting to see where their profs went to college for their undergrad, grad/PhDs. That might provide some added insight.</p>

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<p>Creekland, Liberty U has a course on “cults” in which the goal of the course is to teach students how to correct the “falseness” of other religions such as Mormonism, Christian Science, etc. You seriously think that this shouldn’t make me wonder if a Liberty U grad would be sufficiently respectful of diversity in the workplace?</p>

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<p>And I stated:</p>

<p>(And yes, I won’t say that Liberty as a U is tolerant… but I’m not talking about that. There are quite a few liberal colleges that also aren’t tolerant, but we aren’t talking about those either. I’m talking about individuals… see above. Both ultra conservative and ultra liberal “believers” are out there and both have a right to their beliefs without discrimination when what they believe has no bearing on their jobs.) </p>

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<p>And with the individual you think less of, have you noticed it? You’d said he wasn’t a Bible thumper… but are his actual actions not enough for you?</p>

<p>At my workplace we have oodles of different thought on many different subjects (including politics and religion) and we all get along. I prefer it that way. If we met someone who couldn’t get along with others, then they’d likely not be there long, but it would depend upon their actions, not any school they went to. People skills are a separate issue. I know adults from “good” colleges who can’t hold jobs (or get them) due to lack of people skills.</p>

<p>But in general, liberals need to tolerate conservatives and vice versa. Tolerate is not the same as convert. Tolerate is allowing one to believe what they believe no matter how silly it seems without discrimination.</p>

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<p>So if NU has a course on Marx and puts a positive spin on it does that mean everyone comes out of it a Marxist? Would it make you question their ability to work in a capitalist society. Did you buy everything you were told in college? They teach it–you get to decide if you believe it or not. Same with other controversial subjects. Same with creationism versus evolution. You do not have to buy either theory to graduate. </p>

<p>The course on alternative western modern religions (cults) is for grad students in Theology–not you average undergrad. Now if you were hiring a theologian it might matter but I doubt that comes up often in most businesses.</p>

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<p>barrons, I think there is a big difference between taking a single course in Marx at a respected secular university (in which a variety of viewpoints are articulated and debated) versus immersing oneself for years into an extremist religious institution with very limited tolerance for free thought. </p>

<p>The issue is not simply about accepting different points of view on creation versus evolution, although others (especially Pizzagirl) have spelled out their reasons why someone’s belief in the former would color their impressions of him or her. Although I agree with Creekland that tolerance is something each of us should strive for, the challenge for me is tolerating intolerance when it causes actual harm to others–i.e., “Christian” conservatives and their attacks on gays (as well as their disregard for their equal rights). I guess tolerance is less a virtue for me than righting wrongs and speaking up for those who don’t have a voice. And yes, I would judge someone if I knew he or she actively participated in an organization (say, an evangelical church) that spread hate, or stood idly by while the leaders of the organization mobilized others to hateful action or speech. If this were someone in my workplace, I would do my best to stay very, very far away.</p>

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<p>I’d also ask you and Creekland another question. If you found out someone from your workplace was attending Klan rallies on the weekend, would you still feel comfortable associating with them at work, even if they never brought up their views? Would you truly look at them through the same lens you did before you learned of the kinds of things that were important to them?</p>

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<p>I haven’t noticed a thing. I don’t treat him any differently. If he thinks I’m a heathen, he hasn’t said so, so good for him.</p>

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<p>Sally- I don’t think you have any understanding of the LU POV. They do not as school policy seek to attack or harm gays. They seek to have them see the error of their ways and choose another path. VERY different from groups like KKK that want to harm people directly. They want to save them, not eliminate them.</p>

<p>Ans as to debate being just opinion–obviously that is wrong. Debate always involves researching facts to support your position. It actually lead to a stucky situation for the LU debate team when it has to defend abortion in a competition.</p>

<p>“The debate program has been criticized in the fundamentalist Christian community. John Lofton of The American View Christian radio show accused Liberty University of not being “a truly Christian college” when Jerry Falwell gave permission for the debate team to debate in favor of abortion when required.[81] The issue arose when the team was faced with the need to argue for abortion rights or give up the debate program for that year.”</p>

<p>On the issue of the Democrat Club–the facts are somewhat more nuanced than the reports.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.liberty.edu/libertyjournal/index.cfm?PID=15758&artid=734[/url]”>http://www.liberty.edu/libertyjournal/index.cfm?PID=15758&artid=734&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2009/jun/26/kaine_liberty_solved_club_controversy_perfectly-ar-218020/[/url]”>http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2009/jun/26/kaine_liberty_solved_club_controversy_perfectly-ar-218020/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>barrons, I am sure there is no written policy that advocates harming gay people. But the spreading of misinformation by Liberty personnel has exactly the same result. It foments hate. Do you know who Matt Barber is? A professor and dean at the Liberty University Law School? Just google him if you don’t. I can find PLENTY of his hateful anti-gay rants but not much evidence of treating the LGBTQ community with compassion or trying to “save” them. He also denies any evidence of violence or discrimination having been directed at gays.</p>

<p>I hadn’t seen the followup to the Democrat Club issue. I agree with Governor Kaine, they did the right thing here. But that was probably to avoid having their tax-exempt status revoked…</p>

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<p>Barber’s views are at the extreme end of what would be acceptable speech. And I do not think he represents the broader viewpoint of most at LU including the President. I think Falwell Srs views were evolving as many others were and if he were still around they might have moved further by now. I think Jerry Jr is even more modern and will eventually renounce some of those more extreme people like Barber. </p>

<p>“But 28 years later, in an appearance on MSNBC television, Falwell said he was not troubled by reports that the nominee for Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, John G. Roberts (whose appointment was confirmed by the U.S. Senate) had done volunteer legal work for homosexual rights activists on the case of Romer v. Evans. Falwell told MSNBC’s Tucker Carlson that if he were a lawyer, he too would argue for civil rights for LGBT people. “I may not agree with the lifestyle, but that has nothing to do with the civil rights of that part of our constituency,” Falwell said. When Carlson countered that conservatives “are always arguing against ‘special rights’ for gays,” Falwell said that equal access to housing, civil marriage, and employment are basic rights, not special rights. “Civil rights for all Americans, black, white, red, yellow, the rich, poor, young, old, gay, straight, et cetera, is not a liberal or conservative value. It’s an American value that I would think that we pretty much all agree on.”[14]”</p>

<p>wikipedia/NY times</p>

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Evolution is actually not controversial in the scientific world. It comes really close to universal acceptance. Watch this interesting video.</p>

<p>[Evolution</a> vs Creationism: Listen to the scientists](<a href=“YouTube”>YouTube)</p>

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<p>My point is you sit through it–you do NOT have to buy it. Much like econ or sociology for some. Obviously it is still controversial to quite a few. Also do not mistake a defense for endorsement. I do not agree with some things LU does/believes. But they have an absolute right to do it. And despite the sample here many more in the US agree with them. Sometimes even a majority. </p>

<p>[40</a> Percent Of Americans Still Believe In Creationism](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>40 Percent Of Americans Still Believe In Creationism | HuffPost Religion)</p>