University of Pennsylvania (College of Arts and Sciences) or Columbia University (Columbia College)?

College Search & Lists
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Hey everyone, I don’t use Reddit but I’m super conflicted with this decision and was recommended to come here. I’m trying to figure out my Early Decision and I can’t choose between UPenn and Columbia.

I’m planning on doing pre-law (type of law is leaning towards corporate). I’ve visited both and loved them equally. Also if you have any specific knowledge on which one is better for law school admissions that would be super helpful (to my knowledge they’re the same)!

Please help me out based on the following list (especially if you have any personal anecdotes or experiences) and thank you so much for your time!

University of Pennsylvania College of Arts and Sciences (Philosophy, Politics, and Economics Major):

Pros:

  • Work hard, play hard vibe. Intellectual environment (sorry if this sounds pretentious lol) with a great social life.

  • Excellent academic reputation—tier 1 research school, HYPSM adjacent in terms of prestige, mostly in top 10 if not 20 on almost every int’l academic rating

  • School spirit, Penn relays, guest speakers, events, things always happening on campus with an engaged student body

  • Super connected alumni network- a couple of my family friends are UPenn alum and always talk about this

  • Amazing grad schools but I’ve never heard anything about that taking away from the undergrad experience

  • Lots of cultural events and ways to connect with people of the same culture (and learn about other cultures!)

  • Loved Philly because it gives the city vibe without being too overwhelming

  • Even though I wouldn’t be in Wharton, I’ve heard that being at Penn in general gives you access to Wharton opportunities (clubs, connections, etc.)

  • Loved the campus, seemed like a great balance between the city and the school and was so pretty!

Cons:

  • I’ve heard that people in other schools can be “second-class” compared to Wharton kids (second choice for internships, recruiting, clubs). I personally don’t think this at all but don’t want to get that vibe on campus.

  • I like the idea of a pre-professional vibe but I don’t want it to be too overwhelming and cause too much stress or depression

  • Constant competition and people always trying to one-up each other. I think there’s a certain amount of competition that is healthy but I’ve definitely heard before that it’s unhealthy here

  • Less opportunities in Philly than NYC (Columbia) for pre-law?

  • Less socioeconomic diversity than Columbia. I’m high income but don’t want to be surrounded by only high income.

  • Too much partying? I want to have a social life but don’t want to feel pressured to go out all the time.

  • Safety in Philly?

Columbia University Columbia College (Political Science Major with a concentration in International Relations)

Pros:

  • NYC!!! Lots of opportunities for pre-law, more similar to real life, meet huge diversity of people, food, things to do, etc.

  • Excellent academic reputation—tier 1 research school, HYPSM adjacent in terms of prestige, mostly in top 10 if not 20 on almost every int’l academic rating

  • Core truly educates students and forces them to expand their minds. I sense that Columbia grads in general have a better exposure to that sort of “western canon” backbone of culture which empowers them as thinkers. can also reference core classes in later classes and core unites school. these are also some of people’s favorite classes!

  • Tons of resources, huge endowment also means hugely diverse student body socioeconomically

  • Hugely talented Nobel laureate faculty

  • Deeply impressive alumni (Obama, Alexander Hamilton, RBG, Warren Buffet, much of the beat generation of writers, etc) speaks to preparation and excellence of school, lots of living billionaires etc

  • Great alumni network and huge assortment of merch in bookstore/online (as opposed to small selection at Brown) may speak to alumni love for the school

  • nicer dorms plus VERY HIGH CHANCE of singles freshman year

  • Loved the campus because it was in the middle of the city but still felt like a school.

Cons:

  • Worried about the Core Curriculum being too difficult to manage. I have a 3.89 unweighted (max rigor) at a competitive public high school and don’t know if I could succeed with the rigor of Core (I’ve heard horror stories).

  • Are students forced to take classes they hate in the Core Curriculum? I want to enjoy the classes I take and have academic flexibility

  • Stress culture and depression (kind of related to Con #1)

  • How many of the Nobel Laureate faculty actually teach undergrads?

  • Seems like a lot of campus events would be under-attended because NYC is right there—how much does NYC detract from community? I’ve heard a lot of people stay in the “Columbia bubble” and rarely leave, and it definitely feels like a campus, but I’m still conflicted.

  • Lack of social life?

  • NYC too overwhelming?

  • Current political scene potentially detracting from education?

Thank you so much!

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No one can decide for you but if you are going to law school, think a lot 7 years of costs. Can you afford these and ultimately $700k if full pay.

Seems that both your pros and cons work for both. Have you visited both ?

What opportunities are less in Philly exactly? You’ll have more opportunities than you can imagine. And you are worried about the core - if you can’t make it there then you can’t make it a lot of places.

Now look at the end goal - law school. What will matter ? Your gpa. Your LSAT. Today more and more get work experience.

What likely (IMHO) won’t matter is if you go to Penn, Pitt or Pace. Columbia, Colorado or Central Connecticut State.

Harvard has 146 colleges represented in its first year class. UVA’s 315 first year come from 131 schools. Last year 300 from 133 schools. Penn’s overall law school class came from more than 200 schools and a first year class of 251 from 119 schools. 73% were out of school one plus years so work experience will matter.

I’d focus on - which is best for you - if any. If you truly can’t decide on a favorite, then perhaps ED isn’t for you.

And while many think you can’t get in non - ED, this simply isn’t true. Yes half+ of Penn enrollees are ED but then many in RD turn them down, so they have to admit a lot more and in fact they did, double the amount they accepted ED.

Finally, you say a lot of I hear. How about asking each to speak with a student ambassador or two. Or visit campus and stop kids on campus and talk to them.

Good luck.

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Thank you for your reply! I’m lucky enough that the finance isn’t too big of an issue. I have visited both. The rest of your advice is super helpful, appreciate it!

One quick question: When you’re saying “And you are worried about the core - if you can’t make it there then you can’t make it a lot of places.”, does that mean it shouldn’t be too hard for me if I’m able to get into Columbia?

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A school, if it admits you, obviously believes that you can make it.

But if you are worried about completing it, then you are better to go to Canisius or Central Florida and get a 3.8 than Columbia and get a 3.0 - in regards to law school.

College isn’t easy. Nor should it be.

And if you’re doing PPE because it’s your interest, then great if it’s for law school prep, think again Penn had 59 different majors for 251 kids

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If you can’t decide- apply to both (plus a wider range of matches and safeties) RD and don’t contort yourself into a knot! ED is for a clear first choice which you obviously don’t have right now which is perfectly fine.

In my experience, “stress culture” and competition is more about the student and less about the institution. If you are vulnerable to stress and find competition grinding- it’s OK to find other schools which have a reputation for being more laid back than these two. I know kids who have found one or the other of these “stimulating” without being stressful, but neither is located in a bucolic setting which is conducive to relaxing strolls through the nearby woods to contemplate nature. So if you want “bucolic”- find another school!

Wharton is Wharton and Arts and Sciences is not Wharton. This is fundamental. You aren’t going to be a Wharton student.

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One note with this - maybe neither of these are the right schools. Maybe you should be looking at schools like Brown, Wesleyan, Vassar or Grinnell, Rochester as a target and Kalamazoo as a safety. …I make these assumptions assuming you have a 1500+ SAT, adequate rigor, etc.

Why these ? Open or limited restriction in curriculum.

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There’s a huge number of universities between Columbia and open-curriculum universities. The OP is expressing a concern on Columbia’s Core - with an uppercase C — not distributional requirements that most universities have.

Columbia’s Core includes certain classes that everyone takes. And that appeals to some and is a turn off for others.

As for which to ED, it’s a personal preference, you can’t go wrong with either, but I will reiterate a post above; CAS isn’t Wharton. If you’re looking for Wharton clubs, connections , etc, those are found in Wharton.

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Yes but if OP is afraid of the core, there are other colleges, many of which will have distribution requirements.

In the end, if any school’s requirements bother someone, why would they pick that school? Many colleges offer the PPE or similar degree OP seeks from Columbia - at urban schools such as Pitt or urbanish such as Arizona or smaller, a few miles from downtown like Rhodes or Richmond. And open curriculum Rochester. Wesleyan has their own version in the College of Social Studies. Even urban College of Charleston has a PPE minor to go along with the Politics, Philosophy and Law concentration

I’m not sure what attracted OP to Columbia. It’s obviously a fine school but if someone is uncomfortable with something, perhaps they should either not bind themselves or flat out find an alternative.

They was my only point.

Thanks

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Is there some reason why you must apply ED at all? If you apply RD, you could get accepted to both, and would have until May to choose. And you might actually end up liking one of the other colleges where you get accepted better! Lots of high school seniors find their perspectives change between October and May.

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You can get into a top law school from Columbia, Penn, AND hundreds of other colleges. You have isolated your personal positives and negatives. Apply ED only if, after full consideration, you have a definitive top choice..

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My general opinion is that a student should only apply ED if both of the following are true: (1) They have a school in mind that is their clear number 1 choice; (2) They are either fine being full pay, or have run the NPC and it fits their budget and both they and their parents are fine with the result. For anyone who is strongly considering a graduate program such as law school, “fits the budget” has to account for a full 7 year budget (or 8 year for anyone aiming for an MD, DO, or DVM).

It is not clear to me that you have a clear number 1 choice.

This can be a tough thing to quantify. There will be some unhealthy competition at any highly ranked university. I still remember one time missing what the assignment was in freshman physics class, asking a classmate who I had thought was a friend, and being told “I won’t tell you because I am hoping to do better than you in the class”. Fortunately two other students who were also in the same freshman physics class overheard this, and they did tell me what the assignment was. I think that this same thing could happen at a wide range of universities, but the competition is likely to be strong at either U.Penn or Columbia.

Again whether you will like this can be very tough to predict ahead of time.

At U.Penn, or Columbia, or MIT (where I went for undergrad) or Stanford (where I went for my masters) pretty nearly all of the students will have been near the top of their class in high school. Obviously most students are not going to be in the top of the class in university, and some students will be near the bottom of the class. It is tough to be in the top 10% of the class in high school and then find yourself in the bottom 30% or even 10% of the class in university.

I really do not know how a student can predict whether they are going to take to the higher pace and excel, or if they are going to find it to be too much. Some students may love it. Some might hate it. Some might love it part of the time and hate it part of the time. I had different results between undergrad and graduate school. I was older for graduate school, knew why I wanted to do it, and loved it.

This is something to think about.

If you do not apply ED anywhere, they you have more time to decide whether you want this for yourself as an undergraduate student.

This is very good. This will help you to get accepted to many very good universities. This does not make either U.Penn or Columbia likely. You definitely need to make sure that you are also applying to solid safeties that you will get accepted to, can afford, and would be happy to attend.

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First, I agree you should only ED somewhere if it is your clear favorite, it actually has ED, you know can comfortably afford it, and you know you would not want to consider an offer from any of your other colleges if you got an offer from your ED college. Common reasons to not ED anywhere including having a favorite college that doesn’t have ED, not being sure yet what college will be your favorite (including wanting to do post-offer visits), chasing discretionary merit, and so on.

With that framework in mind, I would not ED Columbia if I was not enthusiastic about the core curriculum approach. That makes no sense to me.

I am less concerned about your “cons” for Penn. As others are saying, Penn CAS is not Wharton. And if you are an Arts and Sciences sort of person, to me that is a good thing, not a bad thing. I think in the Arts and Sciences world, Penn CAS is in fact very well-regarded, and I personally would prefer their curriculum structure to Columbia’s.

But as others are also saying, Penn is not the only great place to go for Arts and Sciences without a core curriculum. If you wanted an even more open curriculum, why not a Brown or Amherst? Over if you love Philly but want even more of a consistently academicky vibe, why not Haverford? And so on. There are plenty of colleges that will be just as good for your academic and professional goals—and for the record, part of the point of these sorts of colleges is you can explore your options before deciding, so you may find your plans change, and that is OK.

But if you consider all those other options and do end up deciding Penn is your clear favorite, then great! If you get admitted ED, it means you will end the process right there, and be able to enjoy the rest of your senior year. If not, well, you now know your other great options and can carry on from there (including possibly EDII somewhere, if that makes sense for you).

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I can’t comment on Penn because I don’t know anyone who went there.

A friend’s son went to Columbia. Every course he took in the core was conducted in seminar format. He not only loved his classes, but he fell in love with learning as a result! He did not find the work overwhelming, probably because he found the whole experience so motivating and enjoyable. He actually looked forward to doing the reading and writing for classes. He was not like that before he went ther. He in fact discovered a whole new side of himself. He has now moved on to a very successful career. I can only say that he had a fabulous experience at Columbia College and that it was even better than advertised.

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You mention prestige in both lists. I don’t think you need the most “prestigious” schools to achieve your goals (and of course your goals may change). Are you applying early to increase your chances? You could apply to both with regular decision, and add several others schools that might meet your needs. For instance one of the Colleges that Change Lives ctctl.org

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Did he, like OP, consider the core to be a downside going in, or was he enthusiastic about it?

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I’m not sure why you’re worried about CAS being second class for high finance or consulting recruiting/internships when your goal is pre-law. If the student body is as pre-professional as you worry they might be, that would also be an advantage for you as it would make getting a high GPA easier with the right time investment due to the majority of students spending less time on classes on more on extracurricular activities.

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He was an athlete who had gone from being an A student in his first couple of years of high school but slipped to becoming an A/B student as his athletic achievements soared. While interested in government, current events, and history, I don’t think that he gave much thought to the core one way or another as a 17-year-old. But when he got to Columbia, he loved his classes in the core and became an excellent student.

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