University of St. Andrews of Durham??

International Students
1

Hi!

I’m currently a senior high school student in the US looking to study in the UK, and recently received an unconditional offer from St. Andrews, and an offer from Durham (on the condition that I get a B+ in one of my AP classes both semesters.This semester I am set to get an A and I’m confident the same will happen next semester). I pretty much have my eyes set on St. Andrews but was wondering if anyone has some insight on whether or not Durham would be a better choice? I’m going to study Social Anthropology. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

2

Have you visited both?

3

I visited St. Andrews over the summer, but not Durham

4

It’s what is ‘better’ to you. They are very different experiences, but academically you can argue the toss.

@VickiSoCal has the most current info on St As, so I will defer to her- except to say that people seem to either really take to StAs- or they don’t.

Durham has about twice the number of students as St A’s and is a collegiate university, so you belong to a college within the University and you live in your college for most of your time there (‘living out’ in 2nd year is common, but you are part of your college all the way through).

tbh, I recommend first reviewing the course descriptions carefully to see if the differences between the programs are important to you. If the modules in one place look more interesting that is an important factor. After that, look at where you want to live for 3-4 years. Can you visit Durham during spring break?

5

Unfortunately I won’t be able to visit Durham over spring break. I suppose it really is a subjective question and all comes down to my personal preference :slight_smile: I really felt connected to St. Andrews when I visited, but then did some reading about Durham and got the sense that it was slightly more prestigious, but I guess it depends who you ask

6

The entry standards are higher for St. Andrews, but they aren’t far off each other.

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?s=anthropology

Socially, within the UK, they draw from a similar pool, but St. Andrews will have more international students.

I second the suggestion to do a deep dive in to the modules.

7

And it seems quite important to consider the issue of a 3 year vs 4 year course, if you just want to do the BA at Durham (for example would it be better to come back to the US for a masters?)

8

(actually the core entry standards for the OP’s course are the same at both unis- AAB- & I agree that overall it’s much of a muchness)

9

I would consider the following:

-Would you rather graduate in 3 years (with possibly a couple of electives, but no switching major) or 4 years (some limited ability to double major or switch major?

-Structure of each exact course.

Durham Anthropology: https://www.dur.ac.uk/courses/info/?id=11577&title=Anthropology&code=L602&type=BA&year=2018#coursecontent
In year 1 you take 4 compulsory Anthro modules, and 2 electives including ability to study a foreign language.
People and Cultures
Human Evolution and Diversity
Introduction to Anthropological Theories and Methods
Health, Illness and Society. You can look on the website for year 2 and 3.

St Andrews Anthropology: (take 3 modules total per year)
https://www.dur.ac.uk/courses/info/?id=11577&title=Anthropology&code=L602&type=BA&year=2018#coursecontent
1 required module first year (plus 2 electives): Ways of Thinking, 2 required as a 2d yea: Foundations of Social Anthropology and Ethnographic encounters, before starting Honours for 3d and 4th year.

Which seems more exciting?

-Look at different opportunities in fieldwork. I think all year 2 students at Durham do fieldwork? https://www.dur.ac.uk/anthropology/fieldwork/2018/
St Andrews probably has fieldwork opportunities too, I just don’t know Anthro & didn’t see it really fast on their website, so maybe e-mail their department?

-Look at the differences in fees for international students. 3 year or 4 year, St Andrews might be a bit more per year?

  • Look at the difference in structure with the college system at Durham and where you might live. Partly might depend on what college you get into? On the Bailey or a Hill college, and which you personally prefer? You won't find out your likely dorm situation until July with St Andrews, but you will know your college for Durham much earlier, in late winter/early spring, I think?

-Are you American and if so, would you prefer more or fewer of your countrymen around? If can be fun to be part of a large group of expats, but you might also like being around more Brits?

-Do you have a cultural preference towards either Scotland or northern England?

  • Durham is on the mainline to London, about 3 hours away on a fast train, and Newcastle is about 10 minutes away by train. V St Andrews is a bit more isolated, about 1- 1 1/2 hours from Edinburgh. But Edinburgh is really great.

-Sports and other extra-curriculars-- which has more of what you like?

If you can’t visit, I would e-mail the departments and start following student newspaper sites for both to get a more in-depth feel. Once you get accepted to a particular college, you can e-mail them as well.

Both seem to be great places, I think either choice might be a good one.

10

PS, since you ask about prestige, I would say my friends who either are English or have been living in England for a long time, seemed to ooh and aah slightly more over my child’s unconditional to Durham. However, when I asked the college counselors at two different (both prestigious) private day schools, in our area of the United States about these schools, both of them seemed more familiar with St A’s. Both had sent more (American) students to St A’s. So I think this depends on who you tell. I think both are excellent schools and I wouldn’t give one moment of thought trying to predict my audience’s reaction to my choice of school, anyway your audience could change over time. I think you can have a great experience at either.

11

@Dodgers1, St As has been actively recruiting in the US for the last few years, so it is not surprising that the GCs you know are more familiar with it. StAs has also adjusted a number of elements in the application and enrollment process specifically to make it more accessible to American students. On the other side, I have noted that some of the English people I know can be slightly sniffy about (Scottish) StAs, downplaying it’s exemplary rankings. On balance, I’m agreeing with your conclusion, and sticking with there isn’t much in the toss, and there are better bases for making a choice.

12

@collegemom3717 St Andrews has been actively recruiting Americans since the 80s, but I’m curious as to how they have adjusted elements of the applications specifically for Americans? Both Durham and St Andrews are on the Common App, and unlike other universities in the UK, St Andrews look at GPA scores as well as standardized scores which may make the application process more difficult in comparison.

13

You have already touched on it, @Capricancer1: StAs actively considers GPA and ECs in a way that is different from the vast majority of UK unis- but one that is familiar to US applicants (and their advisors). From the pov of many US applicants that actually makes the application easier, not more difficult, b/c it is more familiar. You see that in the many posts every year by CC of students considering the UK who trying to get their heads around why that hard-won GPA or all those community service hours being largely irrelevant.

St As were one of the inaugural international unis to sign on with the the Common App when it went international (obviously more have joined since). While lots of UK unis welcome US students (& their $$), St As invested in getting to know the US market, from college fairs to marketing. That has extended now to helping students with applications to US grad schools- afaik, St As is unique in the UK in that.

Even in the two competitive urban markets that I know best (where there are numerous high-flyer independent schools), the GCs are most likely to know (and be comfortable with) St As. It is pretty impressive how successfully St As has spread the word (obviously the royal connection didn’t hurt in that regard).

14

D1 applied and was admitted to both St A’s and Durham. Their recruiting pool is pretty much the same and the cohorts would be equally talented. The real difference to my mind is 3 vs 4 year England vs Scotland and abit more flexibility in St A’s on what you study. As for extra curricular activities Durham is very sporty and the standard of competition is much higher than St A’s in most sports, both have lively clubs and societies. Durham or St A’s can be reached from Edinburgh easily slightly longer journey to Durham about 1.45 on the train. Don’t under estimate the grief travelling from Heathrow or Gatwick with luggage etc into central London to get the mainline trains north.

15

From the US I think the travel is slightly easier to St. A. D17 takes the shuttle from her hall to the Edinburgh Airport for about 20 pounds/1.5 hours.

She was also admitted to both Durham and St. A, funny enough, her high school counselor was more familiar with Durham as a fairly recent grad had gone there, but no one had gone to St. A.

16

“You see that in the many posts every year by CC of students considering the UK who trying to get their heads around why that hard-won GPA or all those community service hours being largely irrelevant.”

Yes, before applying to the UK everyone should read this quote from the director of undergraduate admissions at Oxford:

“It really doesn’t matter if you haven’t got any friends or hobbies or if you don’t do any charitable work …[Acceptance] is a purely academic judgement.” He said universities were only interested in “enthused, engaged and excellent” candidates, rather than “second-rate historians who happen to play the flute”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/7965715/Universities-uninterested-in-pupils-extra-curricular-activities.html

17

@collegemom3717 that’s interesting to hear. I’m a Scottish student at St Andrews right now and at the UCAS fair, we were told that the most important part of our UCAS form were our existing examination results and predicted grades, and then our passion for the subject as conveyed through our personal statement. ECs should only be mentioned if it connected to our personal suitability for the programme and how it links to our academic interests.

I’m not that sure about St As helping applications with grad schools in the US though? Georgetown, John Hopkins, Tufts, Columbia and Princeton visited to encourage applications for their IR programmes, and some other US universities have visited to talk about their PG scholarships, but none of my peers have received ‘direct’ help with their applications. I’m sure the aforementioned US universities also visit other UK universities and it’s not exclusive to St Andrews.

I’ve always been curious about how St Andrews is able to attract so many US students so what you say makes sense. Even on CC, it’s interesting how St As is the only UK university to have its own dedicated thread for applicants. With about 8.1k views on the thread, it’s almost half the number of views as its equivalent on the UK forum (the 2018 applicants thread on TSR has 18.7k views).

18

My daughter applied via UCAS which means there was not much info about her extracurriculars and such for the 5 UK Universities she applied to. Maybe they matter more for subjects like IR?

FYI she says the vast majority of the US students are in IR, Econ and a handful of other departments. She is unusual over in the sciences.

19

Not being privy to the inner workings, I don’t know how much StAs uses the extra info- what is clear is that they give GPA guidelines, talk about ECs, flexibility, etc, and are fluent in American college app-speak. I haven’t seen any breakout, but would be interested to see a breakout of students applying via UCAS and CommonApp.

@Capricancer1, you are right that both grad schools & big companies do milk runs through the upper end unis, but I thought that StAs was a bit more active in organizing Skype interviews and things? I may be either misinformed or mis-remembering (both are plausible!).

20

@collegemom3717 Our law society is very active in organising skype interviews and talks with the major law schools in the US. But as student-run societies are independent of the university, it’s not really the university which ‘organises’ this per se. AFAIK it’s only the law society which does this out of all the other academic societies.

And recently, the law society seems to be focusing more on hosting networking dinners with magic circle and other white shoe law firms.