@philbegas I definately will apply to easier schools too! Hows CS department at Upenn? @Penn95
Whether or not Berkeley is comparable to PENN is debatable(PENN is higher for undergrad imo) however there is NO debate that PENN M&T is well above Berkeley and might be THE finest program there is.
@mlunghi the CS/Design program is pretty special if you want to do animation/3D design stuff. Also if you want to pair it with Cog Science. Otherwise, it is very good, but there might be more special, depending on what you want out of it.
How are choosing your schools, anyway. All this ratings crap is crap. Don’t get caught up in it.
Who cares about a USNews ranking. You would not choose Yale business over Wharton or Dartmouth engineering over Cornell based solely on quality of program. But there are many other issues that go into choosing a University (or there should be anyway.)
So, question #1 is what are you looking for in a college/university, starting with “what can you/do you want to pay.”
@CU123 I mean if we limit it to business, than the only peer schools are Harvard and Wharton…
Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and Penn are all well known (certainly among people very familiar with American colleges, but even among many who aren’t.) They are all good. They are all prestigious.
Of the 4, only Harvard is both need-blind and claims to meet 100% of demonstrated need, even for international students. Whether this general policy difference will make a significant difference in the OP’s particular case is hard to say. They are all extremely selective even for US citizens. All 4 presumably are even more selective for international students. Berkeley, however, does not make institutional scholarship/grant aid available to international students (according to its 2015-16 Common Data Set, section H6). So you might want to consider a less selective school (or even an equally selective one) that does offer financial aid to international students. The University of Illinois has respected CS and engineering programs and does offer some aid to internationals. Many selective private universities grant fairly generous average aid amounts to the internationals they accept. For example at Cornell, for 2016-17, the average dollar amount of institutional financial aid awarded to undergraduate degree seeking nonresident aliens was $58,438 (according to its CDS).
For any college that interests you, you can get a rough idea of the net price (after aid) by running its online Net Price Calculator. The College Board has a site that allows you to save your family’s financial data and run it for many participating schools. (https://professionals.collegeboard.org/higher-ed/financial-aid/netprice). UPenn is a participating school.
Be sure to enter “none of the above” for your (and your parents’) state of legal residence and citizenship status. If it’s a participating college that does not grant aid to internationals, expect it to return “0” as the estimated grant aid (even if your family income is quite low). For a college that does grant aid to internationals (like UPenn), the estimates don’t seem to account for travel costs (as they do for out-of-state US citizens). There may be other ways in which the NPC doesn’t work as well for internationals as it does for US citizens.
@Alexandre First of all you need to calm down, lose the attitude and watch how you talk to people…secondly i am not going to waste my time convincing you of the obvious, it is rather rare for undergrad for people to choose Berkeley over the ivies, Stanford, MIT etc. That is a fact. It is also a fact that as a research university, it has a stronger reputation than all ivies other than Harvard and maybe Princeton. Berkeley grad/research and undergrad definitely do not have the same standing.
@CU123 It depends on what level of detail you are looking at. You know very well that the ivy league is much more than an athletic conference (most people dent even now it is an athletic conference). All ivies are more or less peers, but HYP are definitely more on par with each other than the rest of the ivies. But definitely for undergrad Dartmouth is more of a peer to HYP than Berkeley, If you want to get super anal about it than you could argue that Harvards true peer is Stanford, not Yale or Princeton. The ivy+ schools are essentially peers, of course not all of them have equal standing. Peers doesnt mean completely equivalent.
@mlunghi CS is strong at Penn. Sends many kids to top jobs and top grad schools and the program is rigorous with many cool courses.
Regarding financial aid, run the Penn NPC as mentioned above, but keep in mind it is primarily designed for US citizens. Also check out this info here about Penn International student financial aid. http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/paying-international.htm
@mlunghi again, please don’t pick your college based on what some anonymous CC poster tells you is a “peer.” Peers are for juries.
Identify what is important for you in an undergraduate college.
Identify what colleges have what is important for you.
Identify, of those colleges, which ones you can afford. (I don’t know your situation but many parents have told their kids “we’ll take care of it” - especially internationals who are used to college fees being more affordable. Then when they realize “we’ll take care of it” can mean “we’ll give you 280,000 US after tax dollars over the next four years no problem” they faint, and change their minds.)
Of the ones you can afford that have what is important to you, identify one or two you can for sure get into (your stats are solidly over the 75% mark)
Two or three that should be a good match (your stats are solidly over the 50% mark - and hopefully close to or at 75% for one or two of those.
And, if you want, as many reaches as feel like writing the essays and writing the checks - like any of the colleges you are listing. Any college with <10 or even <15% admit rate turn away loads kids with perfect scores every year. You just have to look at a couple of results threads for Harvard or Penn or Cal to find kids posting they are shell-shocked because they didn’t get in, despite perfect ACT or SAT, published books, sport champions etc.
But really, almost any US top 25, even top 50 University will have a ton of great resources and each will be stronger at different things and some good schools will be surprisingly poor at certain things (or you’ll get unlucky and get a crap prof - happens everywhere.) The more you can identify what is important to you in a school the better.
UCB now offers a direct admission business and EECS or IEOR program (MET), probably to compete with the Penn and similar programs. The curriculum is full major and breadth in both, requiring overloading (about 150-160 instead of the usual 120 credits).
Not sure what the appeal is, though.
First, for those not up on Ivy League jargon, Penn’s M & T program (Management & Technology) is the same as the Jerome Fisher Program. The official name is “The Jerome Fisher Program in Management & Technology.” Posters are using these names interchangeably.
@calidad “How are choosing your schools, anyway. All this ratings crap is crap. Don’t get caught up in it.”
This.^
If you are fortunate enough to get into one of these options, you are very fortunate. If you are admitted to two, it is nearly miraculous. If that happens, choose the one where you think you fit in the best. That will be worth more than the modest differences in rankings.
If a company has resumes from similar students at those four schools, the only way they are going to know which one it the best coder is to have tech interviews and test them. They all have outstanding students and many that were admitted to the other three schools.
@mlunghi “Hows CS department at Upenn?”
Penn’s CS department is very good. CS is the largest major in SEAS. D1 is finishing junior year there now. In a few weeks she is off to CA for an internship at a top tech firm, just like most of the CS students at the other three schools you are considering. The Penn program is challenging, and definitely not for everyone. You need ability, focus, and resilience. I think that is true at all four of these schools though. You will not fake your way through any of these programs.
However, there is also a degree of flexibility with the Penn program that has allowed her to pursue some personal interests, and that makes it more interesting for her. She added a minor in math, and several STAT classes, (one class short of a minor at the moment), and also take coursework in an array of subjects, just because they “looked cool and interesting”: Astro-Physics, Classic Latin, Game Theory and Entrepreneurship. Penn is great for the career-focused student, who also has a lot of natural curiosity and broad interests. I am not sure she could have constructed the 4 years she has had at Penn anywhere else.
“First of all you need to calm down, lose the attitude and watch how you talk to people…secondly i am not going to waste my time convincing you of the obvious, it is rather rare for undergrad for people to choose Berkeley over the ivies, Stanford, MIT etc. That is a fact.”
@penn95 there you go again with the “fact” crap. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.
You gonna cite parchment again? That rag that claims Penn has a 26 ACT for accepted applicants? Although that test score would be proportional to your intelligence exhibited thus far.
https://www.parchment.com/u/college/1519-University-of-Pennsylvania/profile
@CaliDad2020 what do you mean by these “you have percentage x”? Do you mean chance of getting into Upenn with my stats?
Thank you all this is extremely helpful!
@Much2learn I want to study economics/finance and computer science/engineering, so i looked for schools that did so. Upenn, Harvard, and Berkeley seem to have strong departments in both, hence why I was looking at these, although rankings certaintly played a role too.
@mlunghi, if you find college rankings helpful, by all means use them to identify more schools that are roughly comparable, in overall quality, to the ones you recognize. In my opinion, high quality extends well beyond the top 10. In many departments of most colleges across the top 50 (or even the top 100), the credentials of most professors who frequently teach undergrads would be virtually indistinguishable. Some research studies have shown that college selectivity/prestige per se, at least among the top 100 or 200 schools, makes little or no difference to lifetime earnings of most graduates.
On the other hand, the higher-ranked schools generally are wealthier schools that can afford to grant more financial aid. Among universities in the US News top 20, apparently only Berkeley (#20) does not grant aid to internationals. In the next 10 (21-30), several do not grant aid to internationals. As you get into the next 10 after that (31-40), you begin to see universities (like NYU) that aren’t very generous with aid even to US citizens. Among the US News “national universities”, as far as I know, none ranked lower (worse) than Boston College (#31) even claims to meet 100% of demonstrated need for US citizens. A highly qualified individual may get a big need-based aid package at some lower-ranked schools … and top students certainly can get big merit scholarships at some much lower ranked schools. However, it may make sense for a very strong international student with high need to focus on the top 40 or so, then search for true safeties in your home country. I think the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle of that band (like, #11-#31). The top 10 are admission crap shoots; in the lower 10 (#32-40), n-b aid to internationals may be insufficient.
For what you seem to want and need, it may make sense to consider Brown, Cornell, Harvey Mudd College (which is sort of a mini MIT), Northwestern, Rice, Tufts, the University of Southern California, Vanderbilt, and Washington University in St. Louis. These are all rich, selective, prestigious schools with strong STEM programs. As far as I know they all offer generous need based aid packages to internationals. However, they are not quite the admission crap shoots that Stanford and Harvard are (although a few come close). A bit less selective, but still very good: URochester, Brandeis, Case Western Reserve University, Northeastern, Rensselaer, and Lehigh.
“First of all you need to calm down, lose the attitude and watch how you talk to people…”
Penn95, you insult 500,000 Cal alumni by claiming that Penn is superior to Cal, and I am the one with an attitude? 
Did you stop and think how your words affect others? I am sure you do not appreciate it when others tell you that Chicago or Columbia are superior to Penn when there is no real evidence, other than statistical data, to support their claims. Try putting yourself in the shoes of others before you debase their alma matter. All I said is that you should not pass opinion as fact. That certainly goes for me too, and I am guilty of doing so from time to time. We really have nowhere near the experience, information or visibility into those matters as does the collective of university presidents, provosts and deans of undergraduate colleges. According to them, Cal undergrad is not inferior to Penn undergrad.
"secondly i am not going to waste my time convincing you of the obvious, it is rather rare for undergrad for people to choose Berkeley over the ivies, Stanford, MIT etc… that is a fact. "
There is nothing obvious about what you are trying to convince of. I am rather a reasonable person Penn95. If something is obvious or logical, I will wholeheartedly embrace it. You are basing part of your argument on the decision made by 17-18 year old high school kids. It hardly proves that Cal is not as good an undergraduate institution. There are many reasons why people may choose Ivy League schools over Cal. Better financial aid, ED commitments, legacy status, desire to move away from home, etc…That does not mean the undergraduate education received at Penn is superior to the one received at Cal.
I think there are two schools of thought when it comes to determining the quality of a university. One is grounded in the belief that the quality of an undergraduate education can be captured through a series of data points…that there is a statistical equation that can, with a degree of accuracy, predict the quality of a university’s undergraduate quality. Most high school students and parents like the statistical approach because it is tangible. The second is grounded in the belief that the quality of an undergraduate education cannot be captured statistically. In general, most members of academe do not ascribe to a one-size-fits-all statistical methodology. The article written by Gerhard Casper, a Yale educated Law scholar who served as Dean of the University of Chicago Law School (1977-1987), Provost of the University of Chicago (1987-1992) and President of Stanford University from 1992-2000) articulated what most members of the academic community feel, both about Cal being a top undergraduate institution, and about basing rankings on statistics.
https://web.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/97/970418usnews.html
“It is also a fact that as a research university, it has a stronger reputation than all ivies other than Harvard and maybe Princeton. Berkeley grad/research and undergrad definitely do not have the same standing.”
I don’t think it is a stretch to say that Cal’s graduate programs are in a different league to Cal undergrad. I have said as much already. When it comes to graduate programs, not including MBA or Law School, the only Ivy on par with Cal is Harvard. But Cal’s graduate programs are in a different league to Penn undergrad, or Northwestern undergrad, or Brown undergrad, or Michigan undergrad, or Cornell undergrad or Duke undergrad etc…Cal’s graduate programs are generally considered among the top 3 in the nation, along with Harvard and Stanford. Caltech ad MIT match Cal in the sciences and Princeton and Yale match Cal in the Humanities and Social Sciences. Clearly, Cal is exceptional at the graduate level, and it is a notch below at the undergraduate level. That does not mean that Cal undergrad is weaker than Penn undergrad. There is no evidence that the undergraduate education received at Penn is superior to the undergraduate education received at Cal.
@stevensPR Parchment is a viable resource available to compare colleges like it or not. It’s not even close(81-19). Heck Berkeley only has a 58-42 vs UCLA. Do you have another source citing otherwise?
If you are asking about my 75%/50% numbers those refer to the “admissions stats” of the schools. Most schools report to the “common data set” their acceptance stats, including the range of SAT and/or ACT scores. They report them as 25-75% (Basically if the school accepted 1000 students 250 have scores under the “low” number (usually athletes, alumni kids, other special admits for very unique other reasons than test scores) and 250 have above the “high” number (that’s where you want to be to feel you have a decent shot, although schools reject kids with top test scores all the time if the rest of their application is not interesting to the school.)
So Penn, for instance has a “basic” reported ACT 25-75 rangeof 32-35 (this # is actually their attending students which is a bit different than admitted students but close enough for jazz). Now, be aware this is for the entire undergrad university population. CAS (College of Arts & Sciences) and Undergrad Nursing will generally be tiny a bit lower on average, CEAS (Eng) and Wharton at the upper edge of this range and M&T (Jerome Fisher) will likely require (all else being equal) the very top range 35-36.
Basically, if you have less than a 33 on the ACT, and no really strong standout (and I mean by standout, really top notch, not just “best at my school” but “Best in City/State/Area/Country”) special skill/achievement, you’re going to need perfect grades, amazing recs, a pulitzer-level essay and a bit of luck to get into Penn. 30,000 students in the US score 33+ on the ACT each year. Add students who only take SAT and do well and there is a decent sized pool of strong test-takers out there for the Penn, Stanford, Harvard, Cal to select from.
(for reference Harvard reports a 25-75% ACT of 31-35, MIT 33-35, Cal 30-34)
But you have to look at that number not as “A 33 will get me in” but as “if I have less than a 33 I’m unlikely to even be competitive.”
Then you have to look at programs. One of my kids, for instance, had a 33 ACT, significant college research in a competitive program, good grades, lots of APs, etc. etc. and did not get into Cal. But she applied to an engineering major and at Cal the engineering is more competitive than the general L&S school. So, if you were interested in CS, for instance, you can apply to Cal Engineering CSEE, which is extra extremely competiitve, or just to Cal LibArts school to study CS, which is “just” extremely competitive.
Again, schools like Stanford, Harvard, Penn, Cal have very low admission % They are taking 6 or 7 or 12% of the applicants - and most applicants have already self-selected to at least be close to that 25-75 range. Not a lot of kids with 26 ACT scores or 3.5 GPA are wasting the time writing a Stanford or Penn supplimental essay. It is kids with 30, 31 and up. And still 1 in 10 get in. Also be aware Penn, for instance, takes a good % of its class as early admits, so if you are in the regular pool your chances go down further. Again CEAS and Wharton are even more competitive and M&T is perhaps the most competitive of all Penn undergrad programs.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you need further info. But it is very dangerous, if you really want to go to a US school, to only have <20% admit rate schools on your list. Penty of very smart and accomplished US students make this mistake every year and end up sweating wait-lists or having to scramble for a last minute option. If you understand math at all, you’ll realize the issue. UCLA got 100k apps last year. Harvard got ~ 40k for ~2k admits… etc.
(oh and PS, ignore @Penn95 and @Alexandre that’s just what happens when you go to a decent US school that isn’t Harvard or Stanford! lol…)
You may want to consider whether doing full majors in CS/E and business is really worth the trouble compared to doing CS/E with some out-of-major electives in economics and finance.
For elitist employment list Wall Street and consulting, school prestige is a big deal, regardless of major (note that many of the targeted high-prestige schools do not offer business majors). CS/E may be helpful in some areas, of course.
For typical CS/E employment, a second major in business or even a large number of business courses may signal (negatively) to potential employers that you are less committed to CS/E than using it as a stepping stone to management or some such.
“Whether or not Berkeley is comparable to PENN is debatable”…
Moscott, I do not think it is debatable. There are very few people in-the-know that will dispute Cal’s place in the academic realm.
…"(PENN is higher for undergrad imo)…
That is perfectly reasonable. We are all entitled to our personal opinions. But that does not make it fact…or “debatable”. Just because it is your opinion, it does not make it so.
“however there is NO debate that PENN M&T is well above Berkeley and might be THE finest program there is.”
Jerome Fisher is a very interesting, if not unique, program. I am not sure that it can be labeled the “finest” since there aren’t many programs like it. If a person wishes to mix Business with Technology in a classroom setting, the M&T program is indeed amazing, but it is not for everybody. Most engineers I know would rather focus most of their efforts and attention on engineering. I am not sure that the M&T programs will give students an edge when it comes to post-graduation plans either. In what way is “well above Berkeley”. Do tech companies in Silicon Valley give preference to M&T graduates over Cal graduates? Do M&T graduates have a higher rate of success launching start-ups than Cal graduates? Is there a tangible way in which M&T graduates are deemed “well above” Cal graduates?
“Parchment is a viable resource available to compare colleges like it or not.”
Even if that were the case, Parchment’s ranking have Cal at #15 nationally (#9 among research universities). Not a far cry from Penn, which is ranked #7 nationally (#3 among research universities).
“It’s not even close(81-19). Heck Berkeley only has a 58-42 vs UCLA.”
When last I checked, Parchment has some interesting figures. For example, Penn was favored over Cornell by an 87-13 advantage (worse than Cal), over Northwestern by an 88-12 advantage…and even over Brown by a 66-33 advantage. Perhaps a disproportionate number of applicants were interested specifically in Wharton, which would make sense. But as I have stated in a post above, student opinion does not make one university better than another. 80% of the students would choose Harvard over Princeton. Do you honestly think Harvard is that much better than Princeton?