Currently I think I would be applying to:
ED:
UPenn M&T
EA:
Harvard
RG:
MIT
Cornell
Berkeley
UToronto
UBC
Yale
GTech
Brown
Columbia
Am within the range of applicants?
Also, I do not know if I should ED penn… I mean harvard would probably be my first choice, but I’d rather not miss the advantages of ED, im kinda clueless, ED or wait for Harvard’s crapshoot EA?
Most of the people working in technical jobs at computer company startups have a CS background, though some have other backgrounds (occasionally no formal college at all) with self-education in CS. However, business school backgrounds (including CS+business) are rare to non-existent among those working in technical jobs (as opposed to non-technical jobs like finance, accounting, marketing, etc.).
Some economics, finance, and other social science type courses may be interesting and useful, but adding a full business major probably not (and may send the wrong signal to some employers).
“But would adding a full business major to CS/E be of much value than CS/E alone, perhaps with a few finance and economics electives?”
Maybe. It really depends on the student.
I spent some time investigating this subject as D1 considered the exact two options that you are presenting at the end of freshman year. She was in SEAS as a CS major and doing very well. She needed to decide whether to apply to M & T or to stay in SEAS and expand her knowledge base.
I really don’t think that there is a right or wrong answer. In her experience, the M & T students tend to be very talented and have some valuable skills that many in CS are not very good at. For example, approaching a potential new product with a lot of focus on understanding the current market, and how this potential product’s characteristics compared to the competition. How is it different and better? What do customers want and need that they are not getting. How can we add those features?
They also are very skilled at marketing. In CS group projects she has observed that often an M & Ter will volunteer to prepare the presentation slides. At times she has been surprised at how impressive a thoughtful marketing person was able to make their product sound with a slick, visually appealing presentation and customer focus. Those are really valuable skills. Also, she has learned that the formality of a meeting where a finance team is presenting to investors often stands in sharp contrast to what passes for work attire and behavior in Silicon Valley. They sit up straight, the all wear nice suits, hair and makeup are perfect, everyone behaves very formally, they are incredibly well prepared, they are very careful not to interrupt potential investors/clients etc. Just the fact that as a SEAS student she has had the opportunity to observe all of this from her Wharton and M & T friends at a young age is really valuable in my opinion, and she clearly sees the value in these skills. To me it shows real value in the way Penn jumbles students together from all four schools. They all learn valuable things from one another.
However, she decided in the end that her primary focus, at least for now, would be more on technology and less on the finance and business aspects. She would not say that this is a better path than M & T, just better for her.
Instead of applying to M & T, she applied to a specialized CS program that is more focused on issues of connectivity, scaling, and systems engineering, and requires a bit more math and economics than your typical CS undergrad (www.nets.upenn.edu/). I know you will look it up if I don’t attach it. lol The strong economics requirements bolster her economics knowledge as you mentioned. Then, to further bolster her depth of technology knowledge, at the end of sophomore year, she applied and was accepted as a sub-matriculant into the CS masters program. https://www.seas.upenn.edu/undergraduate/degrees/submatriculation.php
She is now splitting her course load between grad and undergrad courses, and hoping to graduate next May with a BSE and an MSE on the same weekend. If she is not able to manage the course load to do that, she will be one course short of her MSE at that time.
I should add that both the special program and the sub-mat require special applications, and the courses are difficult. Neither her path nor the M & T route are viable for an average student. Still they are both there and available for the right student who is bright, works hard and loves a challenge. While I don’t think there is a lot of initial monetary value in having the MSE over a BSE in CS, I do think the added depth of knowledge and experience with increased experience with significant projects is a valuable use of her time.
@ucbalumnus why would it be bad to employers? I mean maybe it wouldn’t provide an edge, but how would knowing more business hinder one’s adeptness for a job?
The problem, from an employer’s point of view, is that engineering or CS plus a lot of business courses or a second major (as opposed to a few electives) can signal that the person is mostly interested in climbing corporate ladders (using engineering or computing as a mere stepping stone) rather than being interested in making a career of engineering or computing.
Here is an example:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/15205580#Comment_15205580
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/17451689#Comment_17451689
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/17456153#Comment_17456153
I would never suggest “hiding” an interest by not taking courses/program of study because employers might think you have too much ambition. I would say that is a mistake. If you are, indeed, interested in engineering and management, there will be plenty of opportunities for that (it is less common now, but not that long ago a common refrain seemed to be "please, get me an engineer with social/management skills!) It may mean you are more attractive for different entry jobs, but many companies are looking for someone who can handle the tech side and also run a project. And not studying that, if you are interested and have the opportunity, is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I can tell you with pretty strong confidence that all of the many Penn M&T grads I’ve known over the years have had a very easy time getting great gigs, despite their dual focus.
What @HPuck35 seemed to find in the linked threads from #64 was less ambition than self-entitlement.
Lots of people in technical roles move into management roles without having had a second major in business.
@stevensPR Why should anyone care that “Parchment says Penn’s average for accepted students used in the parchment profile is a 26.” when Penn’s common data set http://www.upenn.edu/ir/Common%20Data%20Set/UPenn%20Common%20Data%20Set%202015-16.pdf reports an ACT composite range of 31 (25%) - 34 (75%)? Are you suggesting that Parchment’s data is a more accurate reflection of the accepted student population than that reported in college’s official Federally required common data set filings? Just took a look at some more of Parchment’s “data.” Harvard accepted students average: 25 ACT 1676 SAT. LOL. Think it’s clearly time to completely disregard all of Parchment’s “data” including their comparative choice numbers - which is kind of sad as there isn’t much else to go by.
Parchment revealed preference data is constructed from garbage profiles like this:
http://www.parchment.com/c/college/view/?id=1813722
This person definitely got into Harvard!!! Ok maybe not, but he is smarter than penn95 for sure.
Programs like M&T, MET, etc, are designed for students interested in creating their own start up; they even have access to vc etc. The grasuates can also straddle two worlds that currently really want to meet by combining innovation culture and corporate culture, not a small feet since in some ways those are built in opposition to one another.
In addition, ambition is not seen as bad in either culture and completing such a program signals incredible work ethics and excellent resilience, two characteristics that are quite attractive to employers.
They are not the End-all Be-all since you can find ways to build similar programs at various universities, but the programs create a small cohort with extra contacts, networking opportunity, and a sense of belonging in a larger university.
@mlunghi Penn M&T ED is as much of a crapshoot as Harvard EA, if not even more, so apply to your first choice so that u don’t have regrets.
@ucbalumnus @mlunghi I read the posts. Without any additional insight or info on my part they seem to me rather specific to the poster and anecdotal (and have a slight veneer of “pure” engineer snobbery.) It is well outside my area of expertise and I can only provide the counter-anecdotes of the M&T students I knew as well as other dual majors I know. (Not to mention the commonly seen lists of top CEO who are engineering BS/MBA grads.)
But I for sure stand by the basic idea: if you’re interested in both, and can handle the workload, I would not restrict that interest for fear of seeming “too ambitious” or for fear that you will become “entitled.” My guess is employers will recognized genuine business interest and talent (as well as genuine engineering interest and talent) a water will find its level.
Again, I would never suggest not studying something you are interested in because it may make you seem too ambitious. But that is just me.