UPenn vs. Duke vs. Johns Hopkins vs. Brown

Hi all!
I am a high school senior who will be heading to the States for college this fall. I’m interested in pursuing a double major, with one major in the life sciences (biology/biochemistry/biomedical sciences/biomedical engineering), and another major in the social sciences (leaning towards international relations/social psychology/public health at the moment but hoping to explore more possibilities in college). I’m also considering a pre-med track to prepare for medical school, but I really haven’t made up my mind about that - and I don’t think I’ll be able to without exploring my options in college.

I’ve been accepted to some schools and can’t decide between these four: UPenn, Duke, Johns Hopkins and Brown. I love the career opportunities that UPenn offers due to its urban location; I love the forest, the vibrant community, the global service opportunities at Duke; I love the medical facilities that Johns Hopkins offers; I love the freedom in courses that Brown gives its students. I’m torn. I’m also waitlisted by Harvard, in which if I do get in, will save me the trouble of making this decision. But most waitlist decisions come out after May 1, so I need to decide on a school before then.

I am most concerned about (in no particular order): the balance between a competitive and collaborative atmosphere, quality and opportunities in interdisciplinary education, job/internship opportunities and/or research opportunities, campus life (social scene, events, residential life, safety), and quality of the pre-med track in case I do decide to study medicine (especially in regards to the chances of getting into a top medical school).

Johns Hopkins selected me to be a Hodson Trust Scholar and granted me a $34,000 USD annual scholarship for four years. The other schools did not grant me any scholarship, but I’m writing to ask them about it. The scholarship is not entirely necessary for me to attend college (regardless of the scholarship I don’t need to get any loans), but nonetheless it eases some pressure off my family’s shoulders.

Please try to include the pros and cons of each school as much as you can. I have never visited these schools, nor will I have the change to, so this discussion will be one of the main things I rely on. Any ideas, help, thoughts, suggestions will be strongly appreciated.

Thank you all so much!

Duke, Penn and Hopkins all have tremendous medical research facilities and very well established pre-med programs.
Duke and Penn are more “versatile” (stronger in things like economics and public policy) so you wouldn’t be at a disadvantage if you chose not to be pre-med anymore. They also place a greater emphasis on interdisciplinary education.

I would narrow the list down to Duke and Penn (although it would be hard for me to turn Hopkins down because of the scholarship). Personally, I’d pick Duke because I like the campus more (I’ve spent some time at both schools) and because Duke students tend to have more school spirit than their peers at other universities. I’m inclined to believe that this is a consequence of Duke’s great athletics program.

Talk to your parents about the money. If $34,000 is truly insignificant, you should pick whichever school appeals to you the most. All the schools you’ve been admitted to are outstanding. You must be very accomplished.

If JHU is giving you money, choose them. They also have a very reputable program in all facets of biology.

If the money matters (and it is a lot of money) Hopkins is hard to turn down. If biomed engineering is a serious consideration, I’d add Penn and Duke - they will offer more opportunities than Brown in this regard.

All of these places are excellent in everything that you want academically - research opportunities, jobs, internships, etc. I see no reason to turn down such a large scholarship at Hopkins - that covers half your annual costs.

That said, I think Duke and Brown have the slight edge in interdisciplinary study - Brown emphasizes it a lot through the open curriculum and Duke always brags about the number of students who double and even triple major and/or who complete their certificate programs on campus. Hopkins does have excellent medical facilities, but all four of these universities do. They all also have great public health programs (JHU is the best, but Brown and Penn have great programs as well, and Duke’s is also pretty good). You can get into a top med school from any of these schools.

Again, there’s no bad choice here. But I’ll give a JHU perspective.

Normally discussions with JHU involve debating if the higher tuition costs are worth the benefits, in this case the fact that JHU is cheaper makes it all the more enticing in my mind. All of these schools have strong premed programs and are large feeder schools into medical schools, so as far as premed benefits (I believe all of these schools offer committee letters) I think it’s a wash and wouldn’t worry about that. Med schools compare apples to apples (especially when they have so many applicants from these schools each year), so whether you go to a school that inflates or deflates GPAs or go to a tougher but well-known program like JHU BME has little bearing (in terms of admissions) since you can easily be compared to 1000s of your peers just from the past few years (let alone hundreds in any one admissions cycle). Medical schools make it a top priority to find the most well-qualified and diverse class of students as they winnow down the 5,000-10,000 applicants they receive for the 100-200 spots they have. Don’t be tempted into thinking that a school well-known for GPA inflation will sneak under their radar. That being said, attending a school that makes you work hard and forces you to develop strong study habits is very useful come time to hunker down for medical school (and I believe all of these schools have hard-working students and rigorous programs). Again, a wash from a premed admissions perspective. Has much more to do with you and the effort you put forth at these schools rather than any minute differences in counseling resources, program ranking, etc. There are many paths to medical school and I would focus on an undergrad institution for the sake of being an undergrad institution, not just as a stepping stone to medical school (which is a common thing for people to do).

Don’t forget that often the #1, #5, #6, #8, #9, and #10 most popular majors at the JHU School of Arts and Sciences are International Relations, Economics, Writing Seminars (Creative Writing), Political Science, History and English, respectively. Hopkins may be known by the layman for the engineering and sciences, but it has a great mix of stellar and well-respected programs that undergrads (and grads) study. Hopkins describes itself as a liberal arts school with significant amounts of “distribution requirements” for graduating that require students to take coursework outside their program focus. For example, I was a Neuroscience premed major and I ended up taking two creative writing classes, a Philosophy course, two years of French and a half-dozen History of Art courses (I doubled majored in History of Art at the end of the day). Hopkins brags that about 20-30% of its students each year double major, largely because the school requires you to complete coursework in other areas and students end up finding interests and pursuing them only later to realize they just need a class or two and they have the second major. Whether a second major is actually useful in the real world is another story and is a case-by-case basis.

If you’re interested in Public Health or IR, then I would say Hopkins is a great place to be. Bloomberg School of Public Health and SAIS are the JHU graduate schools for these programs and are #1 and #2 respectively in the country (SAIS is typically considered second only to Georgetown’s SFS, though this is debatable and there are other great programs too, like all rankings). Strong grad programs typically have a direct bearing on undergrad programs since they can significantly impact program funding, attract undergrad students passionate about the discipline, and have spillover of stellar faculty and opportunities to take grad coursework and participate in grad research. This is definitely true for Public Health where undergrads are actually required to take coursework at the graduate school and many get involved with all the research conducted there and in the city of Baltimore (one of a few public health researcher’s dream cities for all its problems and opportunities given the willingness of the city to let JHU conduct research and take on big projects in urban planning, inner-city education, etc.) SAIS, on the other hand, is all the way in DC. I’m unsure how this grad program directly benefits the undergrad program; however, the IR major is the most popular undergrad major at the School of Arts and Sciences (more than Biology, Neuroscience, Public Health), so it must be for something. Some students apply Sophomore year to the five-year BA/MA program where you complete your Master’s at SAIS your last two years, which is not a bad route to go if IR ends up being your interest.

As with all of these schools, collaboration is emphasized at JHU since it is the teaching model of the 21st century. The world operates based on collaboration and this is how problems are solved. No one has all the answers and all the best ideas all the time. All upper level coursework in my experience had group research projects, group presentations, group reports, etc. Some people hated it and preferred to work alone, but tough, working with others is one of the most important skills you’ll learn, and not understanding how to do it is a surefire way to ruin your career. There are competitive students at JHU who won’t go out of their way to help you or have a bad attitude (when you talk about premeds at any school you’re bound to find a few of them), so once you find out who they are just avoid them. It’s that simple. JHU is a small school and these students tend to learn quickly that they need to be nice or they’ll be picked last for the proverbial kickball game.

Your happiness is a key factor for any undergrad program. But everyone has preferences for what is important to them, and a ranking survey of happiest students seems meaningless to me when you start looking at a case-by-case basis for what a particular student wants. Honestly, all of these schools organize concerts, food festivals, class bonding events, etc. That’s not what determines why someone is happy at one school and not happy at another. What really matters is finding the right 2-10 people who will form your inner circle in college and make life enjoyable on a daily basis. This is really what people reflect on when they say they had fun in college, not whether the school organized three concerts a semester or five concerts a semester. I had a friend who transferred out of NYU since she said there was “nothing to do.” Really, in NYC? Of course it ended up being that the people she hung around with loved to create drama, didn’t like exploring the city, and ruined her experience. It had nothing to do with the school, nothing to do with the location, and everything to do with her choice of friends and the serendipity of who we ultimately become friends with. Basically, you will control whether you have fun in school or not. Will you learn to manage your stress and balance work/play? Will you actively seek out fun people to hang with and study with? If not, you’ll be miserable and hate your school, and if you do, you’ll love the school. At the end of the day, these schools are largely attracting similar students with similar stats, the same array of ambitions, similar levels of diversity and the schools are putting in similar levels of funding for school events and mental health support. Any differences in these values, unless huge (which I doubt since clearly these are all good things to have and schools really do want to create a positive environment, not a toxic one, which many people find hard to believe) will be negligible, and it really does come down to the individual and what they get out of their undergrad experience. JHU has the persona of the premed magnet, but looking at numbers of applicants from these schools, they all are generating about 300-500 medical school applicants each year. JHU may have a slightly higher per capita, but don’t forget premed is such a loose term. I had friends who were Writing Sems and Art History and Physics premeds, hardly the cookie cutter persona when we imagine a premed. A premed is still a person, and there are good premeds and bad premeds (just like good witches and bad witches). Just because they want to go into medicine says very little about them: some premeds want to join Doctor’s Without Borders and provide aid in war-torn countries while other premeds want to go to medical school to become plastic surgeons in Miami and make tons of money. Saying a school has a high percentage of premeds hardly takes away from the diversity in my mind. The persona a school has was born out of a need to categorize (this school is fun, this school is hard) since humans like to categorize things, but when you end up looking at numbers and be rational about it, differences between these schools are nowhere near as stark as we have been led to believe.

Lastly, learning to manage stress is also a big deal, and this also is largely unique to the individual. Some people get stressed out studying for an exam they’re already going to ace while other people find it much more stressful deciding what to wear each morning. Finding your own triggers and learning to negate them effectively and keep yourself healthy is a top priority and has little to do with which of these schools you attend (in my opinion). All of these schools will have difficult coursework (especially if you’re a premed), and even if you manage to avoid stress in undergrad it will still find you when you’re in medical school/grad school or when you’re ready to raise a family, have a career etc. Stress is stress. I’m not sure why people (in general, not you specifically) focus primarily on avoiding it rather than learn how to deal with it since it will find you (Liam Neeson voice). Anything worth doing is difficult, and difficult things have the potential to create stress.

All that being said, I will praise Hopkins for its flexible coursework, diverse student body, unparalleled research spending (and its associated opportunities for undergrad research), stellar grad programs (especially in areas you are interested in pursuing) and the simple fact that in your case it’s the cheapest. Don’t forget that Baltimore is the fourth largest city on the East Coast with 630,000 people and is ripe with opportunities (both for having fun and career oriented). If you’re interested in government work or healthcare MD is a great place to be since these are huge employers and MD has consistently enjoyed the highest average income of any state. Proximity to DC with signifiant government research institutes and federal institutions throughout the state and neighboring Virginia greatly contribute to a relatively stable job market as well (unemployment never got above 8% in the state during the worst of the Recession and US average was above 10%). Just last month (March) Maryland posted the best jobs gains of any state, and your proximity to the East Coast in general makes travel and job prospects just as ample in my mind as Philly. I wouldn’t say Maryland has the best jobs market in the country, but it hardly is anything to scoff at, and if you want to go into healthcare, research or government work it really is one of the major epicenters in the nation and the JHU name is golden especially in the area (let alone nationally and globally).

I will also add if you are an international student applying to U.S. medical schools it will be extremely difficult. It really will be orders of magnitude more difficult for you versus your American peers, and I think having contingency plans or considering a medical education outside of the U.S. (and ultimately practicing outside of the U.S.) should be considered. The competition is already stiff in the U.S. and many medical schools have quotas to fill with in-state student acceptances, and so international students are always getting the short end of the stick. There is also the concern that international students will leave once they complete their education, and that is a huge loss of resources for the school and the already struggling American healthcare system.

Even though I’m a Penn alum, I can’t recommend turning down JHU with such a big scholarship.

You will not get scholarships at Brown or Penn, Ivies don’t give scholarships, they only give grants for significant financial need. If you might be pre-med, that 34K * 4 years would be very nice to have to pay for your medical school.

Brown tends towards liberal arts than the others, so I would put them in last.

To be honest, reading up a bit on the scholarship you were awarded at JHU, it sounds quite prestigious and could be a bonus to help you get into med schools or anything else you might pursue. This would be on top of the money provided.

(The only thing against JHU is that Baltimore is kind of a dump, even compared to Philly where Penn is. But the campus is very nice.)

To go back to your list:

  • the balance between a competitive and collaborative atmosphere - this depends somewhat on your major, but honestly I think it is likely a tie with the possibility of Brown being more collaborative if you lean that way
  • quality and opportunities in interdisciplinary education - similar
  • job/internship opportunities and/or research opportunities - research and internship I would give to JHU and Penn since they are in large cities
  • campus life (social scene, events, residential life, safety) - Duke is in the South - my friends who went there felt it was a different situation than in the Northeast where there is more diversity of culture and religion. Safety depends on whether you want to stay on campus or not - JHU would lose on Baltimore being unsafe, but would you want to go into Baltimore frequently? Residence life, read up on it for each, schools that have “dorm colleges” can feel limiting, I know Penn has both open housing and “dorm colleges” so there is a choice
  • quality of the pre-med track in case I do decide to study medicine (especially in regards to the chances of getting into a top medical school) - JHU is often praised for their pre-med program - I would suggest looking more into your chances as an international student getting into a US med school, as other posters noted - note also that research is NOT very conducive to becoming a medical doctor unless you want to go MD/PhD - there is a great need for general practitioners, and the least amount of interest by US medical schools in students who will rarely see patients