Urban vs. suburban schools

CuriousJane · October 27, 2012, 8:51pm

My 8th grader suprised me this week by deciding that he wants to attend the performing arts high school in our nearby city and a technical theater “major”. We toured the school on a whim, not really thinking he’d be interested and he fell in love. I think he’s got a good shot at getting in, and my guess is that if he does I’ll leave the decision up to him, but I’d love to hear perspectives from people who have faced similar decisions, or had experiences with similar schools. The choice would be between the following:

School A: Large suburban “neighborhood” school. The school has a wide range of academic choices such as 3 years of computer science, journalism, Arabic, and multivariable calculus, an IB program and every AP class imaginable. Test scores are high, with an average SAT score 250 or so above the national average, and an impressive list of college acceptances. The school offers lots of sports, and lots of EC’s and a media/theater conservatory program where kids can take one or two classes a year for all 4 years. The school is majority white, but with about 30% students of color. The population is very affluent, with our solidly middle class family falling near the bottom. The faculty is very very white.

School B: Small urban magnet school where kids spend half a day in a phenomenal arts program, and the other half in a lackluster academic one. Academic offerings are limited, with honors classes in math and English only, and a handful of AP’s. Average SAT scores are about 180 points below the national average, probably reflecting both the fact that the school draws from a poor district with lousy middle school options, and that many of the students are far more interested in the arts than academics. The college acceptance list includes some impressive arts programs (Tisch, Berklee, Oberlin conservatory), but otherwise is definitely not as strong as School A. The school day is longer and other than 1 year of PE, there are no sports offered on campus. Tech students are expected to be available for many evening calls so outside sports and EC’s would be challenging to impossible. But he’d have 3-4 classes a year in lighting design, live and recorded sound, and stage management. Those classes would be small, hands on, with students working on real shows, both student shows and the various groups that rent the school’s theater. The school is about 85% black, and draws students from all socio-economic groups. The faculty is very diverse.

My kid: Very sweet wonderful African American boy growing up with a single white mother. He can be kind of shy, and has difficulty finding his “niche” in our local public middle school which feeds into School A. He enjoys both sports and tech theater, but I wouldn’t describe his as a student who is passionate about the arts. However, he’s definitely creative and enjoys being around the kids who gravitate to the arts. Academically, I think he’s got pretty average potential, but makes up for that by working very hard and gets mostly B’s in honors classes. I have no idea if the arts school would lead to an arts career, or if it would be something fun to try for a few years before moving on to something else.

Other things to note: School A is walking distance from our house. School B is about 30 minutes on public transportation. School A is free, while School B would require us to either move in district or pay tuition, but the tuition is significantly lower than local private schools.

I’m not sure what I’m asking, other than just to hear people’s reactions and thoughts.

ucbalumnus · October 27, 2012, 9:12pm

Some things to think about:

You said that School A offers “a media/theater conservatory program where kids can take one or two classes a year for all 4 years”. How does that align with what the student may be interested in theater or arts? In School B, would the student actually take four classes a year in theater and arts, and would that “crowd out” other things that he may want to take?

You said that School B’s “Academic offerings are limited, with honors classes in math and English only, and a handful of AP’s.” Which handful of APs? Are they solid ones like English literature and calculus BC, or are they a smattering of “AP lites”? And how well do the students at each school do on the AP tests after taking the AP courses?

You mention the ethnic and SES distributions of the schools; do such things appear to be a problem for the student at the current middle school that is presumably like School A?

You said that “Academically, I think he’s got pretty average potential, but makes up for that by working very hard and gets mostly B’s in honors classes.” B grades in honors (presumably college-prep) classes are above average overall, though it may not seem like it in some schools or districts, or in comparison to the stats given in the “chance me for HYPSM” threads here. Remember that the average high school student is not going to attend a bachelor’s degree granting school, either immediately or after community college (bachelor’s degree attainment in the US is about a third of people over 25). So do not underestimate the student.

zoosermom · October 27, 2012, 9:28pm

If there is something that calls to your son in school B, and there clearly is, I would work from the assumption that he’s earned the right to have his preference given significant weight. Here are my questions: is there anything immediately disqualifying about school B? How is the commute in actual conditions? If he does after school activities? Is school A so white that your son lack for peers or role models? What about school B? If your son goes to school B and it doesn’t work out, is transfer to school A possible? Is school A welcoming to a black boy?

mstee · October 27, 2012, 9:35pm

Small schools can be wonderful for some kids. They are much less likely to get lost in the shuffle. Can he try it for a year or a semester? – can always switch to the neighborhood school if it turns out not to be so great, right? Are the academics so bad as to be worrisome? In other words, do you think they are bad to the degree that he would not be adequately prepared to go to college?

CuriousJane · October 27, 2012, 9:37pm

In School B, he wouldn’t have a choice. In order to stay in the school and graduate he’d need to take 3 hours a class a day in his “major”. Kids can’t take classes in other majors, so he couldn’t take a dance class or an art class, which he could at School A. I’m not sure it would “crowd out” other classes, in that School A has 7 periods and School B has 10, but there are definitely classes that he might choose to take at School A (e.g. he’s talked a lot about taking Arabic), that just aren’t available at School B.

I don’t have the list in front of me, but I think they offered Calc AB and BC, APUSH, English Lang, English Lit, Bio, Chem and French. So note “lite” but also a lot of things missing such as World History or Spanish or Physics. I don’t have stats on School B’s AP test scores, but I would imagine they’d reflect the SAT spread with School A far higher.

Our school is the only feeder for School A, so it’s the same kids, class size, and demographics. After 3 years there he tells me he’s lonely and doesn’t have good friends. I’ll say that I don’t know what role race plays in that.

One thing I do know is that he frequently seeks out black adult role models. The diversity of the staff at school B, and particulary the number of African American male teachers is a huge plus from our point of view.

As far as economics, I don’t think he feels like an outsider economically, although there are certainly many kids who are far richer. But I do think there’s value in exposing kids to economic diversity, which he isn’t getting.

As I said, he works incredibly hard for those grades, relative to his peers. I don’t think he’ll have an “average” outcome, in the sense of not going to college, but I do think that there are plenty of average kids who end up in college because they have what he has, parent(s) who are college educated and able to help and support, a 529 account, and a community where college is the expectation. I don’t have any doubt that he’s going to college, and that that’s where he belongs, but I think that in that 2/3rd there are plenty of other kids who had similar potential but either didn’t have the work habits, or didn’t have the support that he does.

Both schools send about 95% of their students to college/conservatory/art school.

zoosermom · October 27, 2012, 9:42pm

I think that’s huge

CuriousJane · October 27, 2012, 9:47pm

I think he is lost in the shuffle now, not academically but socially. The specific program at School B serves 20 kids, 5 kids per grade, so he’d have 3 hours a day of class with those 20 kids. That’s a huge change.

Whether he could “try” School B for a year would depend on whether I decided to move or pay tuition. If we moved, then we’d need to move back for School A to be an option. There isn’t a great “School C” option if we moved and then stayed in the city.

As far as how bad the academics are? It’s hard to say. The 430 point spread between the 2 school’s SATs is daunting, but as I said some of that is about where kids come in. It seems clear to me that, unlike School A where he’d be in the middle of the pack, he’d start School B near the top. I’m not clear how well those kids are served, and need to investigate that.

cobrat · October 27, 2012, 9:49pm

I would find & talk to School B’s recent graduates who decide not to continue to focus on arts/music in college or were otherwise turned down by arts/music conservatory programs. I’ve known of several neighborhood kids who attended La Guardia HS for the Arts in NYC had some issues with plan b after finding they wanted to do something outside of arts/music or whose talent wasn’t up to the intense competition for arts/music conservatory programs…even lower-tiered ones.

This concern was a factor in why some neighborhood parents discouraged their kids from going and why several La Guardia students transferred over to my STEM-centered public magnet for 10th grade. Incidentally, the HS classmates I knew who ended up being admitted to Oberlin Con/Double-Degree or other arts/music conservatory programs weren’t the ones who transferred in from La Guardia or any other arts/music centered HS program.

I’d also second Zoosermom’s advice to check into how welcoming School A would be of Black students.

Depending on the kid…which only you’ll know…starting and remaining at the top throughout high school may not necessarily be the greatest thing.

Many such kids…especially in high schools with average or worse academic programs may end up breezing through high school with stratospheric grades only to crash and burn once not too long into their first year. Saw far too many such kids at Oberlin and HS classmates saw the same types of kids at their respective colleges.

DeskPotato · October 27, 2012, 9:57pm

I’m not sure this is a question about “urban vs. suburban schools,” as you’ve framed it.

It’s a question about a choice between two specific schools.

(Is there not also an arts magnet school in your suburban county?)

My understanding is that technical theater, unlike performance, is a career path that still offers the prospect of fairly steady employment. A friend of mine who’s pursued a performing arts career (BFA in Musical Theater, >25 years ago, followed by decades of scraping by), says she really wished she’d learned lighting or sound design, because those people WORK.

It’s also the kind of thing, like playing the French horn, that can be a tip for selective college admissions if that is a need the school has to meet in that particular class. Every school with an active theater program needs kids who can TD the student shows. Performers are a dime a dozen, TDs are not.

The array of APs you describe is plenty, honestly. If your kid isn’t an academic powerhouse, how many APs do you think he needs to take? Lots of kids only take a couple, and most don’t take any before junior year. They’re theoretically the equivalent of college courses–how many kids are ready for college after ninth grade?

What are the logstics and the pros/cons of moving across the city line? Do you own your home or rent? Would you need to sell it? Would moving back be an issue if he is not happy?

Finally, is this school one he needs to audition/apply for or is it a sure thing? It might not be worth worrying about until he’s accepted.

zoosermom · October 27, 2012, 9:59pm

My son started high school this year and he sounds very much like your son. We chose a less obvious option because it spoke to his heart. My son is also part of a female-heavy family. He says one of the best things is that he has multiple male teachers. He say that creates a totally different atmosphere.

mstee · October 27, 2012, 10:02pm

It doesn’t matter so much what the average SAT/grades are, but more how YOUR kid does. I have found that my kids have been pretty consistent with their standardized test scores. Moving them to better schools didn’t really increase them (they were fine to begin with, though). Also, the daughter who arguably went to the best high school, with the highest SAT scores got a bit lower of an SAT score than a couple of her older sibs.

SteveMA · October 27, 2012, 10:04pm

School A has 30% students of color-I’m sure that being “black” is not really going to be an issue if it is not now in middle school. Personally, I would send my child to A. It has a lot more to offer and if I look back now at what my kids wanted to do in 8th grade compared to 12th grade, they are drastically different. Having an interest is a lot different than having a passion and to focus on the arts for half of your high school career and not liking it in the end is going to be a huge detriment, especially not being able to branch out to other arts areas.

Also, what about friends? How many kids in the art school live by you? Do you really want to drive him an hour just to go to a party or out to a movie with high school friends and if you don’t, he won’t have any social life at all. Since your current school is right down the road, there are kids nearby that will be his friends and social circle.

Since school A has a theater program and he gravitates toward those kids, he will be able to participate in those programs in school. Also, from your other posts, he is also in sports, will he be able to do those in the Arts school, probably not.

We have several kids accepted into various conservatory type colleges every year from our plain old public high school and oddly enough, at a higher rate then the Arts high school a few towns over. I would look into that for your two choices as well.

CuriousJane · October 27, 2012, 10:04pm

That is, in general how I parent. My instinct is to say “yes” unless there’s a very strong reason to say no.

The commute to B, in the daylight, is fine. It’s two public buses (not school buses) and maybe 40 minutes each way which is not a big deal, although of course the 10 minute walk to A would be much easier. It’s not a question of doing afterschool activities, as it is of staying for shows that are part of the curriculum. The Tech kids are expected to, and graded on how well they, run the lights and the front and back of the house during pretty much every show whether it’s dance, or orchestra, or whatever. So they sometimes have 6 a.m. calls, and sometimes are there until 11 p.m… As a freshman I’d probably want to drive him if he got off after rush hour, eventually I might be OK with him taking the bus late at night but I’m not there yet.

The concerns I’d say I have about B, in no particular order are: lack of sports, academics, logistics, tuition. None by themselves is instantly disqualifying. He can go to the gym, we could do more academic summer options or hire a tutor, the logistics aren’t impossible, and the tuition would be a stretch but not impossible.

He lacks for black peers in his honors classes, but not as much in his on level classes (e.g. gym, arts). The student body is more diverse than the faculty. In 3 years at school pre-A, he’s had 2 black teachers and only after I went to the principal and begged. He does have black role models who are coaches, and family friends, and other people outside of school, but as he gets older and spends more hours at school that doesn’t seem to be enough.

If we don’t move, he could always go back to A at any time.

My impression is that A is very much like his middle school. We have had no significant issues at pre-A, he’s never been bullied, and while I’ve had to push harder to get him into honors than I might have had I had a white kid they respected my right to make that decision. But I do continue to wonder how much of his social isolation is due to race.

oldmom4896 · October 27, 2012, 10:05pm

If I were you, I would make sure your son would get a good enough academic experience to succeed in college. And if you are sure he would, I would give my blessing for him to attend school B.

My daughter, in NYC, was accepted at one of the schools that admits via the big test they give, and another school with a very interesting specialty but limited academic opportunities. I know she would have been at the top of her class at school #2, and she would have a very interesting college application. But I am not so sure she would have been prepared well enough for college work.

She attends the test-in school where her grades are not super, but she is getting a much better education in my humble opinion. As a graduate myself of a working-class high school, then attending a top state school, I felt woefully unprepared, and I am glad she decided (without my pushing her) to go for the more demanding school academically. But I think that in your son’s case, the issue of race may be more important.

zoosermom · October 27, 2012, 10:20pm

Would it be a hardship for you to drive or pick up your son if he went to B? Do you live in an area where the weather could make that commute truly miserable? We knocked a school off my son’s list because, while it seemed perfect on paper, it involved a similar commute to your son’s with two buses that connect badly. My son is not a morning person and that commute, particulary in winter, would have made our lives hell.

Could your son do a buddy day at both schools?

Consolation · October 27, 2012, 10:24pm

I agree with everything SteveMA says in post #12.

If 30% of the school are students of color, that seems unlikely. Depending on what you mean by “of color.” Are we talking 25% Asian and 5% African American? If he is socially isolated from other African AMerican students, I’m sorry to ask, but could that be more a question of YOUR race than his? If so, that is unlikely to change at School B.

zoosermom · October 27, 2012, 10:27pm

You’d also have to know how many the students of color are male.

Consolation · October 27, 2012, 10:28pm

^^good point

CuriousJane · October 27, 2012, 11:31pm

Except I think that the issues that come with A and B are issues that are very typical of the suburban/urban divide. A has issues that are very typical of my county – too much pressure on kids to follow a certain cookie cutter path, too much competition, too little diversity. B as issues that are very typical of the city – issues related to student poverty, low academic achievement, lack of resources. Obviously the arts piece changes it a little, and the size of the schools is a factor too, but to me the biggest issue is do I want the safety of the suburban school (not physical safety, I don’t have that concern in either place, but the safety of knowing that he’s on a predictable track with predictable outcomes) or the richness and challenges that come with the city.

<a href=“Is%20there%20not%20also%20an%20arts%20magnet%20school%20in%20your%20suburban%20county?”>quote</a>

[/quote]

No, the only magnets in our county are IB and math/science.

I agree this is true, but I’m not sure his goal is to be a professional TD. Having said that my brother majored in tech theater in college and took his experience working with sound and went into computer networking and did very well.

I agree.

We rent so moving isn’t out of the question but I like where we live. Finding an affordable apartment that would let us keep our dog, in a safe neighborhood, with good public transportation options to School B, would be a challenge. Getting back into this neighborhood would be a challenge too as there are only a few apartment communities in our price range.

The other issue is that moving would mean giving up instate college options. I would need to weigh that question very carefully against tuition.

He needs to apply, it’s not a sure thing although we’ve gotten good feedback from admissions.

CuriousJane · October 27, 2012, 11:35pm

We’ve been here 3 years and I would say that the kids at his current school aren’t his friends and social circle. In 3 years he’s never had a friend from the school over from the school. He’s been to 1 birthday party, and a handful of Bar Mitzvah’s. When he gets together with kids outside of school it’s consistently friends from his elementary school (in the city), or from sports.

If sending him to the new school meant he had a solid enough peer group that I’d be driving, I think that would be great.

Urban vs. suburban schools

CONNECT WITH US