URM Chances

Colleges & Universities University of Pennsylvania
301

<p>well put momsdream. i hope davidrune and thestonepandas reads that
"Laertes- Who, exactly, decided that the minority students being admitted were “underqualified”? What are the qualifications (since you seem to know)? You think you know who “should be accepted”? Based on what? The ONLY people who “should be accepted” are the people who the adcoms admit. Other than that, there’s no <em>rule</em>. I have yet to see Penn list a set of qualifications that must be met in order to be admitted. You seem to think that there’s a defined “floor” and that the admitted black students are below the floor. That’s just not how it works. Admission is subjective. Therefore, none of us are qualified to make statemets about who should or shouldn’t be admitted to Penn or any other school. Penn is OBVIOUSLY looking for diversity beyond race, which explains why they reject wealthy blacks with good SAT scores while admitting poorer whites with lower SAT scores. </p>

<p>What makes you think that SAT scores are the only qualifier? Do you think that a slightly lower SAT score means that the same student is “underqualified” (your word) in every other way? Why, then, does Penn even bother to read ANY applications? Why not just have College Board submit your scores and Penn will admit the top % of scorers…period? You mentioned creativity? What makes you think that the black students being admitted aren’t creative? Has the SAT started to measure creativity and nobody told me?"</p>

302

<p>momsdream, let me make it simple for you. what i am about to say isn’t some crazy theory. you simply cannot deny it. if a URM would not have gained admission without the color of his skin, then he is underqualified. if blacks didn’t need AA, then why have AA? If your argument is that “oh heh well only a few students get admitted only because of AA” that’s like saying (assuming AA is morally wrong, which you are going to have to convince me it is not) “oh well, he only stole 5 jelly beans. i guess that’s ok. i mean shucks, it was only 5 jelly beans! that’s less than the number of posts in this thread!” and just by the way, again, how do you know that penn rejects wealthy blacks and admits poor whites. i don’t remember telling them my parent’s income!</p>

<p>“THE BLACK STUDENTS BENEFITING FROM AA ARE NOT UNQUALIFIED!”
WAIT A SECOND, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN’T READ WHAT I’VE WRITTEN BECAUSE STUDY AFTER STUDY SHOWS THAT BLACKS DO NOT BENEFIT FROM AA.</p>

<p>“and you’re saying that there would be a just as racially diverse population without AA at ivies?”
no, but who cares? seriously man, i thought the color of your skin didn’t matter. as davidrune and common sense pointed out, skin color does not add diversity. </p>

<p>nana: you should go ahead and read that logic page as well. i don’t recall making the arguments that momsdream “addresses” but using my powers of inference it seems that you directed her post which just demolishes anti-AA sentiments at me. strawman, anyone?</p>

303

<p>stoned pandas, man, you have to chill out my friend</p>

304

<p>thestonedpandas…did you just say that skin color doesnt matter?</p>

<p>oh you are so horribly wrong my friend, so horribly wrong</p>

305

<p>filmy: i’m just playin, braaaah. plus i’m so tired so i’m super grumpy and today at bball practise coach yelled at us so hard it was ridiculous. imagine a fat irishman turning red from anger and that is coach.</p>

<p>ethio: i’m sorry you judge people based on their skin color and find satisfaction (or a lack thereof) based not on the actual circumstances surrounding a person but on something as trivial as skin color. i suspected we’d moved on past that.</p>

306

<p>bumppppppppppppppp</p>

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<p>Stoned: I know that Penn rejects wealthy blacks with higher scores than admitted poorer whites because I know students who fall into these categories in the 2004 ED round and what is exactly what happened with them - at Penn and other Ivies. You don’t have to tell Penn what your parents income is. Usually, the parental education/employment info is enough for anyone to take a guess at income…and essays usually tell a story. </p>

<p>There is no way for you or any of us to know that someone would have been rejected without race having been a factor. Again, you continue to use SAT scores as the sole measure of ability. This isn’t an appropriate way to measure, and isn’t the method used by adcoms. I suggest that you read last year’s admissions decision thread. You will see many, many higher scoring applicants being rejected over lower scoring applicants, who were admitted. The vast majority of these applicants are white. The conclusion that you should draw is that SAT scores are not the ultimate measure, even when comparing whites against one another. I wonder, then, why you want to force everyone to believe that it should be the sole measure for black applicants. It’s simply not true. </p>

<p>Another important point is to note that black applicants often particiapte in ECs related to their communities. This separates them from other applicants. We all know that unique ECs are a big draw. If a black student has a 1350 SAT and is at the top of her class, she’s alredy positioned as being in an extremely unique position. At that point, she’s likely to also be leading black-themed ECs, which are positioning her to be a catalyst for change in the black community. That sort of thing is VERY attractive to adcoms. Now, imagine that you are a Penn adcom. You are looking at a balck male applicant who has a 1350…and leading his black community…and speaks 3 languages…and is an A student. Wow. You would think “wow, this kid is a real rare find!! and I bet his accomplishments will continue to expand and grow…and one day he’ll probably be somebody really important in his community…and if we admit him we can take some of the credit for producing a leader in the black community…ADMIT”…because it is a VERY big deal Stoned. The black student (especially the black males) who show up with the qualifications I list above may not look like a shining star when pooled with the white applicants; but, when you realize that he’s black and understand how very rare he is, you understand the big deal.</p>

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<p>but, when you realize that he’s black and understand how very rare he is, you understand the big deal.</p>

<p>So you’re in essence agreeing with StonedPandas in saying that he would not be a competitive applicant were he not to be black.</p>

309

<p>david you are black correct?</p>

310

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<p>well, a black male leading his poor urban black community is rarer and more impressive than a lot of things<em>. just like being an olympic athlete, it is physically impossible for everyone else to attain. i guess it isnt “fair” that someone can be born with the genetics needed to become the fastest runner in the world, but i’m sure you’ve heard “life isn’t fair” many times. highly prestigious institutions have SO many people applying who are capable of thriving academically</em>*. they pick the people that will glorify their institutions in any way they see fit, not you. there’s also diversity, a highly sought, prized bragging right among prestigious instutions, that this young man would bring. </p>

<p>and in the case of the affluent black still gaining an edge due to affirmative action? tough. you’re just like the archetypal, envious runner-up rival if you know what i’m talking about. he works harder, wants it more, but in the end the other guy, basically due to genetics, has an edge and outperforms you.</p>

<p>why not just quit being bitter about it? </p>

<ul>
<li>- i guess a rich white guy leading a poor urban black community would be equally, if not more impressive, but how feasible is that?</li>
</ul>

<p>** - trust me, SAT scores do not indicate how well someone can do at a school. sidenote: the valedictorian at columbia a few years ago had a sub 1200 SAT score</p>

311

<p>i think david is. and i think its funny that he bashes AA, but theres no doubt that he has (or will) benefit from it.</p>

312

<p>“i’m sorry you judge people based on their skin color and find satisfaction (or a lack thereof) based not on the actual circumstances surrounding a person but on something as trivial as skin color. i suspected we’d moved on past that.”</p>

<p>You’re ridiculous. There is nothing trivial about skin color.</p>

313

<p>Realistically, I’m pretty sure that I will not benefit from AA. Firstly, I’m not African-American, I’m just African. Secondly, I am not a permanent-resident or citizen of America. I wrote my essays about my background and how that influenced me, but I’m sure I’m not alone in that regard. </p>

<p>I just get midly irritated by the whole mentality of AA. To me, it seems to preach that African-Americans can not work hard… and they will always need a legs up. My parents have always taught me that hardwork, is the most important thing in life. They overcame great obstancles in their lives, obstacles that rival growing up in a ghetto, yet they were still able to give me a good upringing and to succeed.</p>

<p>I mean, what is stopping african-americans from getting above 1500 on the SATs in the same numbers as white students. And dont’ argue wealth… because studies have shown that poor whites exceed rich black students in SAT scores (on average).</p>

314

<p>Putting wealth aside, culture is an important factor to consider. For most African-American students who live in majority black neighborhoods (usually inner-city) the SATs aren’t stressed as being important or even brought up until senior year. A lot of the kids in these environments aren’t encouraged to take the PSATs in their freshman, sophomore and junior years. The teachers and staff at their schools don’t expect much from them and don’t push them. Kids are products of their environments. How much can you expect a student to achieve in an environment like this, even if they do decide to work hard?</p>

315

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<p>I don’t mean to be rude but in many ways you are very different from blacks within the US, so in a way I wouldn’t expect you to view this issue from a shoes of a minority who believes in AA. I feel that with you being African, though you may experience prejudice, you do not have the emotional baggage that comes with being born in your skin within the US. You most likely come from a background that prides education and achievement and that undoubtedly has helped you. But essentially for most African-Americans, it is almost as if we were the new ethnic minority stepping from off of the ship during the late 60’s and 70’s and being introduced into a new society. Most were poor and didn’t value education that was for “white” people, and this ideal has been passed through the generation to generation.</p>

<p>I Attend a diverse private school with blacks who are wealthy; however sadly, they do not perform to the level that they should for the reason being that they don’t want to be labeled “white”. I , myself, have walked past that sad view and have been accepted into Columbia because from a very young age I did not let color define me or anything about me. Many more “blacks” in this country have walked past this view with their acceptances into elite colleges and universities.</p>

<p>I can’t understand your logic in saying that a person with lower scores but amazing EC’s or personal attributes should not gain acceptance into a school. I think that it is pretty obvious that what colleges are saying is that they don’t believe that scores are everything, and that in fact, high scores are the determinants of the ability to be successful or the ability to fit into an elite school.</p>

316

<p>Well said smithk. Very good point about being labeled “white.” I’ve experienced it too and it really shows how many people fall into what society expects of them.</p>

317

<p>oakley29 and smithk welcome aboard</p>

<p>your comments on “acting white” are so true smithk…im african (but born and raised in the United States), and the high value that my parents placed on education, and my pursuit of intellectual interests have more than once earned me the “white” label…and thats not exactly an easy one to deal with.</p>

<p>btw smithk, do you go to st albans? (random question, i heard that it was a really good school in DC)</p>

318

<p>no, I actually go to Gonzaga College High School…St. Alban’s is our rival though</p>

319

<p>Hey guys. I have a question and I’d like your opinions. Aside from the value/harm of AA on academically, regardless of your opinion on it, what impact, positive, negative, if any, do you think this social policy has on racial relations? Though there are exceptions on both sides, it seems that skin color plays a huge part in your opinion on AA. Giving AA the benefit of the doubt, let’s say it “levels the playing field”. What value is there in this opportunity-wise level field if it creates bitterness, resentment, even outright prejudice? Do you not believe that it does? This just occurred to me because I was in a discussion with classmates (Black, White, Asian) and we were remarking how AA did tend to color our views. The overall feeling was that it isolated us into enemy factions; a you’re either one of them or one of us mentality. I think this is a problem that is growing both inside the same race as well as between all races. I know that we’ll never truly be “one people” but it’s kind of scary how much power AA can have, how it can create new stereotypes and perpetuate old ones. I’m really interested in your opinion. how can we promote ‘academic equality’ while closing the racial gaps while preserving aspects unique to each culture? is this possible?</p>

<p>also, kudos to smithk for not letting color define you. from the opposite spectrum, i’ve seen many asian students who aren’t interested academically yet sacrifice to get A’s because it’s what “the race” expects. hopefully, we’ll all reach a point one day where color is a nonfactor and anything, not just aa, based on race will become things of the past.</p>

320

<p>still waiting manyal.</p>

<p>Mommy:
The fact that you know a poor white who got in over a wealthy black is irrelevant to your argument. Also, you had me at strawman, moms. SAT isn’t the only criterion, but Penn admits that it gives a special advantage to African Americans based solely on the color of their skin. In other words, many (and hell, even 1 is too much) of those students would not have gotten in without it. This is not some crazy theory I’m trying to prove to you – either Affirmative Action gives blacks “bonus points” (not to be taken in its most literal definition a la Michigan) simply for being black (and again, this is a race based system, not an economic based system) or it does not. Also, either Affirmative Action helps blacks, or it does not. Aside from the volumes of statistics and research (The Sanders papers I presented a while back are probably of incredibly importance if only for the fact that Sanders is very liberal and his studies on affirmative action caused him to change his mind because he found, study after study, that it hurts blacks more than it helps them) saying that it does not, you’d have an incredibly hard time (read impossible) saying affirmative action is a way to help bring diversity and equality to the world if it only effects a few people. As with the other people I’ve debated here, it seems you are changing your argument to suit your case, rather than trying to find a solution that actually helps african americans.</p>

<p>smith, were you trying to defend AA?

they’re racists.</p>

<p>

Even if he does benefit from AA, I don’t see why that’s funny. I think it’s courageous. Are you insinuating that you’d still support AA if you knew for a fact (which you should know, by now, if you look at the facts!) that it harmed African Americans as a whole simply because it benefits you? Sounds selfish, but I’m sure a lot of the opposition is in this position!</p>

<p>

THERE IS NOTHING TRIVIAL ABOUT SKIN COLOR?!@#!@ Please tell me, eli, how the gene responsible for the color of one’s skin and how much time one spends in the sun causationally correlates with happiness, potential IQ, athletic ability, or pretty much anything else! Are you (read: You are) insinuating that skin color accounts for differences in people that we should pay attention to.
Now I’m going to give you some quotes about racismand let you see just who you sound like (these taken from encyclopedias including wikipedia):
“Racism refers to the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or <em>that individuals should be treated differently based on their ascribed race</em>”
“Assuming that every individual’s character can be adequately determined by racial or ethnic stereotypes is race prejudice, and giving or withholding privileges based on such stereotypes is racial discrimination. The term racism is sometimes used to mean a strong and persistent bias towards these activities.” </p>

<p>oakey: by fixing the environment or taking them out of the environment.</p>