<p>those are excellent quotes on racism, pandas. they encompass the core of what racism really is, in all forms. unfortunately, there are people out there who see racism as a way to combat racism/right the wrongs of society’s past. the “you hate me so i should hate you” mentality.</p>
<p>and in a way, you answered my question on racial tension so thanks.</p>
<p>Well I don’t even know if many of the people use it as a “hate” mentality. It is more of what they perceive as fairness. I won’t deny that some people suport it for selfish reasons (in fact, we ostensibly have some of them in this thread!). But the argument that seems the most popular, whether it is believed or not is: “people who lived a long time ago who share your skin color discriminated agaginst people who lived long ago who shared my skin color and we are worse off today because of said discrimination so it is only right that in this modern day we argue for a soceity that discriminates against you.” The problem with this is that statistics show that it hurts both skin colors.</p>
<p>As for if it causes hatred amongst races, I would argue that among those who have a tendency to hate it most certainly will. Among those with a tendency to hate, non-preferred-races (NPRs) will look at those they perceived as preferred negatively. Among others with that same tendency, preferred races will view NPRs as condescending and unaccepting.</p>
<p>I, for one, refuse to look at race when I judge a person. When I encounter an African American at Penn, I will not assume that it was exclusively his race that earned him a spot over an NPR. I am sure this happens and it makes me mad, but, quite frankly, putting my efforts into hating others based on something as trivial as the color of their skin is not something I’d care to do (nor would it be effective at creating the social change I argue for!). Well, gnight all. Happy Birthday To Me.</p>
<p>Happy Birthday! I’m born in January also. The big 18 right?</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that no matter how you look at it prejudice, racism, and discrimination still occur in our society. It may not be outright and blatant, but its more subtle. I disagree with you on the notion that past discrimination isn’t relevant in our society today, if you were in my skin or the skin of another minority you feel so also. I also disagree with you on the points that many blacks are not worse off because of slavery and discrimination. How can you not look at the poverty of many blacks and not place at least some blame on the past sins of this country?</p>
<p>As for AA…Personally I feel as though many people on this thread are fixated on the underrepresented student getting into selective colleges and universities with an 1100 and 3.0 GPA when that in fact is not true. Many of theses “underqualified” minorities are applying to schools with SAT scores over 1300 and GPA that are near perfect and not to mention most likely stellar EC’s. I really dislike when people look at the 800 Avg SAT score for blacks and some how assume that all black are getting in on the notion that they have brown skin. </p>
<p>Now if it were true that schools such as Columbia and UPenn were admitting people solely on skin color then I would truly against “AA”. But can any of you actually say that these school would accept me solely on the basis that my skin is brown ( or as my mother says pecan tan with a little bit of red…lol), and also for the fact that some of my ancestors have been affected by racism and discrimination?</p>
<p>Oh…HAPPY BIRTHDAY PANDAS</p>
<p>Yes Hao.</p>
<p>You presume I am not in the skin of a minority? You presume wrong. I am. In fact, my minority has had a worse time throughout history than blacks!</p>
<p>Further, the effects of racism and the civil rights abuses are no doubt still felt today. And they are relevant. The question is, though, how do we address these issues because they are relevant. (sorry if I wasn’t clear before.).</p>
<p>Also smithy, I never said that Blacks are better off today because of Racism and the civil rights abuses (The rest of your points rely on claims you claim I claimed -lol- but in reality I did not. So please reread my post or, if you find where I have said something, quote me so I can clarify.) Also, I suppose an argument could be made that the conditions in present day America are better than those in Central and Western Africa, but I won’t make that argument!</p>
<p>Sorry if I mis read your post but I though that you were using this quote to state that discrimination doesn’t exist in society
</p>
<p>As for how to deal with racism and discrimination…ultimatly it will take a willing part on the generation to come no matter what color a person is ( something that I can already see happening ), but more so, people in this country need to be able to obtain education.</p>
<p>Yes, I think conditions are bad in Central and Western Africa with regards to the upheaval that is going on over there but how is that realvent to dicrimination or something over here?</p>
<p>lol, sorry guys…it’s funny. “Yes Hao”-zoom! back into debate mode. 
Love your guys’ passion. i think that if we all keep on caring this deeply, no matter what our opinions, it’ll definitely be an asset to society.</p>
<p>Okay, I can understand (while not agreeing) with people wanting aa for Blacks and Native Americans…yes history of oppression/poverty/misunderstanding sat importance/ whatever your reasoning. However, I’ve never really heard the argument for Hispanics other than they’re underrepresented and colleges need…our favorite word again…diversity. This thread has been mainly a Black AA topic. Can anyone answer?</p>
<p>I’m just curious of what you guys think of the following sutation:</p>
<p>Let’s say there was an asian guy, who grows up in the surburbs. He loves basketball, and he plays it everyday. He even tries to immitate his favourite basketball players in style of speaking as well as in attire. He quickly earns the term “acting black” and lots of other insulting terms. Anyways, he ignores this terms and he becomes really good at basketball. But he’s not quite good enough to make the NBA. Should the NBA lower it’s standards and accept him?</p>
<p>“I, for one, refuse to look at race when I judge a person. When I encounter an African American at Penn, I will not assume that it was exclusively his race that earned him a spot over an NPR.”</p>
<p>Because it probably wasn’t</p>
<p>"THERE IS NOTHING TRIVIAL ABOUT SKIN COLOR?!@#!@ Please tell me, eli, how the gene responsible for the color of one’s skin and how much time one spends in the sun causationally correlates with happiness, potential IQ, athletic ability, or pretty much anything else! Are you (read: You are) insinuating that skin color accounts for differences in people that we should pay attention to.
Now I’m going to give you some quotes about racismand let you see just who you sound like (these taken from encyclopedias including wikipedia):
“Racism refers to the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or <em>that individuals should be treated differently based on their ascribed race</em>”
“Assuming that every individual’s character can be adequately determined by racial or ethnic stereotypes is race prejudice, and giving or withholding privileges based on such stereotypes is racial discrimination. The term racism is sometimes used to mean a strong and persistent bias towards these activities.” "</p>
<p>What I’m insinuating is that it is very, very naive of you to state that in the real world, outside of this self-obsessed world of elite college admissions, race is trivial. When a black kid walks into an arab or jewish-owned store on the westside and is followed around for looking “suspicious,” there is nothing trivial about his skin color. </p>
<p>And dude, supporting AA does not make me racist. I’m not ssuming anything so I’m not even argue that with you. You just need to do some reading, take a culture studies course when you get to Penn, and you’ll learn that race, gender, and class are EVERYTHING.</p>
<p>Davidrune-that’s a ridiculous analogy. The NBA is a business that is about winning games…no educating people and improving the world. </p>
<p>I just can’t get over the arrogance of people who think they know who is and isn’t “qualified” to attend a certain college. How do any of you know that Penn hasn’t decided that anyone with a 1200 or better SAT is qualified? Who set the magic “qualified” bar at 1500? It’s just silly to start making assumptions about who is and isn’t qualified when you aren’t even taking part in the discussions of the adcom. </p>
<p>And for anyone who thinks that skin color is trivial: Do you have an answer as to why light skinned African Americans are generally wealthier and have greater opportunities (education, career, social) than darker skinner African Americans?</p>
<p>“Penn admits that it gives a special advantage to African Americans based solely on the color of their skin. In other words, many (and hell, even 1 is too much) of those students would not have gotten in without it.”</p>
<p>Panda, please share the supporting data that you have to show that many of the black students at Penn wouldn’t have gotten in without AA. I really hope you can back this up and it isn’t something you pulled from thin air.</p>
<p>momsdream, generalization after generalization… actually most succesfull black people that I have met in the States have been very dark skinned. This is because they are usually first or second generation immigrants who worked their asses off to get to where they are. But that’s just anecdotal.</p>
<p>momsdream, I’m sure you don’t believe that there are not students in Penn who wouldn’t have been accepted without AA. I mean… why else would universities practice such a policy… </p>
<p>I’m sure the students were qualified, wnoderful and have done great things at Penn. But that doesn’t mean that they would have been accepted without AA.</p>
<p>“This is because they are usually first or second generation immigrants who worked their asses off to get to where they are. But that’s just anecdotal.”</p>
<p>Actually, what that would tell me is that immigrant blacks who were not subject to the historical crimes of America, but are able to come here by their own will (rather than kindnapping) and take advantage of race based AA are probably the biggest beneficiaries of a system that wasn’t designed for their use. But, that’s another topic.</p>
<p>Anyway, I wasn’t generalizing. There are popular documented studies on the advtantages given to fairer skinned blacks. It’s no secret.</p>
<p>Davidrune, you need to take a serious look at African-American and US history because you will see that there has been and still is a preference for lighter-skinned blacks within the US. This form of thought first came about during the slave years and has crept its way into all parts of society. While there you may see some succesfull dark-skinned blacks, its pretty much common knowledge that lighter-skinned blacks can a do become more succesfull</p>
<p>Davidrune’s contribution seems to have been purely anecdotal because he specifically writes about people he has met. I don’t think he has a good grasp of black american history…which is really disturbing since he’s on this thread with much to do about AA. How can you hold such a strong opinion on AA without understanding it’s origins and the origin of the very people it is intended to address. Even the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education has done articles on the skin-tone driven racism within the black community and the prestige of being a member of the old Blue Vein Society (where you could only belong if your vein was visible through your wrist because you skin was fair enough). Slowly, but surely, the injustices against darker skinned blacks are being addressed and such things aren’t as significant - but they still exist - especially in the south (and they DEFINITELY exist in the Caribbean). </p>
<p>But, I think Davidrune’s exposure has been mostly to other immigrant blacks…and they just might be a very well educated and wealthy lot. Those that I know certainly are. But, in NO WAY should he dismiss the deep-rooted issues of skin color in America just because he knows a few dark skinned immigrant africans who are hard-working…the two issues are unreleated.</p>
<p>And to answer DRs question: yes, I am sure there are students at Penn who were given a race consideration because Penn says they consider race, geography, legacy, etc…</p>
<p>Can I say that these students would definitely not have been admitted without checking the box? No, I can’t. I haven’t seen their apps in entirety. Like I said, I know more than one black student was was deferred. These students come from elite prep schools, are well prepared, have good (not outstanding) SAT scores (1200+) and applied ED…and no, they were NOT admitted. So, as I have said too many times, I don’t believe AA is all that some of you are making it out to be. Believe me, I was waiting to see what happened with these students that I know. I knew they weren’t stellar when they applied…but they were more than solid. If they had been admitted, I probably would have though that perhaps AA is a little unfair because it diminishes to accomplishments of the blacks who score highly and get in (like my own son and others on here). But, that wasn’t the case. They didn’t get in. After I got calls from each parent about the deferrals, I thought “well, there you have it…all of that BS on CC about AA is worthless - they anti-AAers are misled”.</p>
<p>Woah! this thread is super long.</p>
<p>“Davidrune-that’s a ridiculous analogy. The NBA is a business that is about winning games…no educating people and improving the world”</p>
<p>dont most large corps require racial diversity?
I know schools do regarding staff members
My chem teacher (white female) told me that if any black woman (or maybe even man) applied for the position, no matter the credentials (as long as they had min reqs to teach hs chem), they would have gotten the job because the staff has to be diverse</p>
<p>momsdream… firstly, I’ve studied American history for two years. But I will not claim to be an expert on race-relations in the US. But I do know enough about history, to know that other races suffered injustice… not just african-americans. It just seems wierd to me that just african-americans receive the benefits of AA. </p>
<p>Secondly, you accuse me of using anecdotal evidence and then you go along and give an example of people that you know to validate your belief in AA. That is unbelievabely hypocritical. Where are the facts? I have given facts numerous times during this post that shows that not only income affects the low-scores of african-americans. I have even given suggestions… and yes I have read articles in the JBE. </p>
<p>I have talked about creating role-models within black society and encouraging educated black people to give back. After school programs… funding… etc.</p>
<p>* My chem teacher (white female) told me that if any black woman (or maybe even man) applied for the position, no matter the credentials (as long as they had min reqs to teach hs chem), they would have gotten the job because the staff has to be diverse*</p>
<p>That is horrible. I would rather be taught by a qualified professional who was hired based upon his/her skill… than just because he/her was black.</p>