URM Chances

Colleges & Universities University of Pennsylvania
341

<p>"What I’m insinuating is that it is very, very naive of you to state that in the real world, outside of this self-obsessed world of elite college admissions, race is trivial. When a black kid walks into an arab or jewish-owned store on the westside and is followed around for looking “suspicious,” there is nothing trivial about his skin color.</p>

<p>And dude, supporting AA does not make me racist. I’m not ssuming anything so I’m not even argue that with you. You just need to do some reading, take a culture studies course when you get to Penn, and you’ll learn that race, gender, and class are EVERYTHING."</p>

<p>Ok, thanks for showing me that people sometimes judge other people based on race. That still doesn’t show me how race is not trivial. Like I said in my last post (which I’m assuming you did not read even though you quoted it in its entirety: Please tell me, eli, how the gene responsible for the color of one’s skin and how much time one spends in the sun causationally correlates with happiness, potential IQ, athletic ability, or pretty much anything else! Are you (read: You are) insinuating that skin color accounts for differences in people that we should pay attention to. </p>

<p>I also highly suggest you read the post that you quoted in the genesis of your objection to my calling skin color trivial. It seems we agree, but once again, you guys are dancing around!</p>

<p>“Panda, please share the supporting data that you have to show that many of the black students at Penn wouldn’t have gotten in without AA. I really hope you can back this up and it isn’t something you pulled from thin air.”
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE HOW YOU’RE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, MOMMY. Really, it’s great. Read the post to which you responded to with this, and then read this, and then see if you’re as bewildered as I am!</p>

<p>But seriously momsdream answer this question for me: do you think that blacks are better writers, make a better impression on their teachers, or have a better culture than other races? If you answer “yes” then some discussion can be made. If you answer “no” and assume that they are about equal to white people, then you can tell that black people are getting a boost by their GPAs and SAT scores.</p>

<p>Also, mommy, not only are you the queen of anecdotal evidence (and false generalizations, and…), but I’m totally loving the fact that you believe AA revolves around the circumstances at Penn and that AA at Penn is a microcosm for AA around the nation.</p>

342

<p>But what’s also interesting is that no one has responded to my evidence for AA harming African Americans.</p>

<p>(here’s a hint, guys, when you go back in this thread and (re)read it, try not to go into it with the mindset of “i’m going to try to disprove it because I love AA.”)</p>

343

<p>David Rune, with your attitude with regard to AA, I don’t see how we can get African-American students to the level you are describing. A lot of the problem is generational. The more black students in college the better off the next generation will be.</p>

344

<p>“Ok, thanks for showing me that people sometimes judge other people based on race. That still doesn’t show me how race is not trivial.”</p>

<p>Ever heard of DWB? What about people being detained at US airports for looking supicious (ie, for being “Middle-Easttern-looking”)? If racism did not exist, then it would be trivial. But racism does exist, it stigmatizes, even kills people. It is not trivial.</p>

<p>The genesis? “as davidrune and common sense pointed out, skin color does not add diversity.”</p>

<p>statement: absolutely wrong. As somebody said earlier, a rich black person experiences some things that white people don’t. Both experiences, white and black, inherently add diversity. Bottom line.</p>

<p>“which I’m assuming…” Yeah, maybe you shouldn’t</p>

<p>“Please tell me, eli, how the gene responsible for the color of one’s skin and how much time one spends in the sun causationally correlates with happiness, potential IQ, athletic ability, or pretty much anything else!”</p>

<p>As for this, Costa, I’m pretty sure that none of these are cause-effect relationships. What I can tell you is that race, as with other biologically acquired characteristics (gender, I believe sexuality, etc) affect people’s lives. Perhaps not invariably or causationally, but then again very few things outside of a math class work that way.</p>

345

<p>AA has nothing to do with reparations or discrimination. it has nothing to do with salvery. so get over it everyone.
AA exists because some collges and universities find that it behooves them to take additional steps to ensure that they have a somewhat racially diverse campus. They feel that it is important that college students be exposed to a variety of different races and ethnic groups, since collge is a time for learning and they consider it to be a learning experience. Now, only 180 (approximately) black students scored about a 1450 on the SATs last year, and this is the general pattern year by year. Latinos and Native Americans also, as a whole (not just the poor ones) scored poorly in respect to the general population. So colleges realized that htey would have to take other aspects into consideration, since SATs aren’t everything, and they valued these students and what they could contribute to a campus. These students aren’t underqualified, and they too have to have perfect gpas and extracurriculars. No URM is going to sleep through highchool, get a 800 combined on the SATs, and walk into Penn or wherever. Often times, they will have worked harder than their peers. So colleges overlook the SATS (which have shown to be unbalanced predictors of future college perfromance) and take the best students from these groups. Now, not everyone here agrees that racial diversity is essential to a learning environment. Some are of the opinion that an all white (or all asian) school with a diversity of incomes would provide the same stimulation as a schools with decent numbers of whites black latinos native americans and asians. That is a fine belief to hold, but I can personally say that a native american can teach me more about their experiences in america than a financially diverse asian school could. What it all comes down to in the end, is whether you value a diverse campus or not. You can claim as long as you want that you appreciate diversity and that it can be achieved in other ways (whic may be true in a few generations) but as it stands now AA is the only steadfast way to diversify college campuses. So which do you want guys?</p>

346

<p>good point… I can’t believe that this thing is 18 pages long and I’m guessing nobody answered the OP’s question.</p>

347

<p>lol. so to the original poster: you may or may not get into Penn. The End. (yay)</p>

348

<p>“Ever heard of DWB? What about people being detained at US airports for looking supicious (ie, for being “Middle-Easttern-looking”)? If racism did not exist, then it would be trivial. But racism does exist, it stigmatizes, even kills people. It is not trivial.”</p>

<p>You are <em>obviously</em> not understanding me, and I think you’re just being difficult. I’m going to make this really easy for you. Skin color (you know, black, white, brown) is trivial (you know, isn’t something that we should look at) because it (in case you forgot what my pronoun was talking about: skin color) has no bearing on what type of person one is.</p>

<p>Now, eli, this doesn’t mean that other people don’t judge others based on skin color.</p>

<p>Now eli, I really don’t like liars. And, really, eli, I’m sure you’re a relatively smart kid and, in order to “win,” deliberately danced around that this, in fact, was the true genesis of that quotation: “but, quite frankly, putting my efforts into hating others based on something as trivial as the color of their skin is not something I’d care to do (nor would it be effective at creating the social change I argue for!)”</p>

<p>“They feel that it is important that college students be exposed to a variety of different races and ethnic groups, since collge is a time for learning and they consider it to be a learning experience”
You sure it might not also have to do with bad PR?
Filmy: are you saying that diversity is more important than how the URM students actually end up?
“Now, only 180 (approximately) black students scored about a 1450 on the SATs last year, and this is the general pattern year by year.”
I believe that the statistic is “African Americans” although the MSNBC article says “Blacks.” Larry Elder’s book claims that blacks in barbados frequently score higher.</p>

<p>As DR noted, your argument about SATs is a good one <em>only</em> if you can prove that black people score lower because the SAT is culturally biased. It seems to me that it is not, however I am all for getting rid of the SATs completely. But still, assuming your point is valid, what do you have to say about the studies and statistics i’ve given that show that AA hurts blacks?</p>

349

<p>how does giving people a shot at a good education hurt them thestonedpandas?</p>

350

<p>“are you saying that diversity is more important than how the URM students actually end up?”</p>

<p>thestonedpandas, we’re buddies, we chat now and then, so you know im not saying this maliciously, but… you don’t care how the urm students end up. i know you dont care, you know you dont care, most people on this board know you don’t care. so lets stop kdding ourselves or trying to pull a sentimentality card, ok? now later on i assume you’re referring to the fact that affirmative action helps white females more than anyone else… well this fact doesn’t show that there is a flaw in the system, that IS the system. affirmative action was created to ensure higher levels of women and minorities on campus. white females are the highest group included in that category that apply to college each year, therefore it is only logical that they reap the benefits. and while some studies show that aa ‘hurts’ black students, others point to longterm benefits and discredit those other studies because it hasn’t been long enough to determine whether or not it helps.
i also believe that through a simple process called logic, you can determine that the SATs are biased. If as a whole minorities are underscoring, and we are assuming that there is no ‘super race’ then the SATs are biased in some way, and they are not accurate predictors.
like i said before, either you want a diverse campus, or you’d rather wait 50 years. thats really really really all it comes down to.</p>

351

<p>Oh geeeez, Pandas, you are really out there…</p>

<p>You said, and I quote: "many (and hell, even 1 is too much) of those students would not have gotten in without it. "</p>

<p>And I responsed: “Panda, please share the supporting data that you have to show that many of the black students at Penn wouldn’t have gotten in without AA.”</p>

<p>And you responded: “I ABSOLUTELY LOVE HOW YOU’RE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, MOMMY. Really, it’s great. Read the post to which you responded to with this, and then read this, and then see if you’re as bewildered as I am!”</p>

<p>Words in your mouth? LOL</p>

<p>Ok, nevermind. This isn’t a good debate. It’s a joke and is no longer worth my time. I suggest we all move on.</p>

352

<p>ethio: you need to go to a top school to get a good education? giving them a shot is fine, but if they are not educationally ready for the shot then, well, look at the studies and statistics i’ve presented.</p>

<p>filmy: you’re right I care less about the fact that it hurts blacks than the fact that I believe the system is inherently unfair, however that ad hominem attack does not mitigate the pure facts and, to be frank, is inconsequential. the fact that “your side” ignores the facts astounds me. you care less about helping black people than you do about easing your sense of white guilt, and many of the others care less about helping black people than they do about “getting whitey.” i’m not pulling the sentimentality card, i’m pulling the demonstrative logic card. however, if it could be shown that affirmative action is fair to all races involved and helps minorities, i would support it.</p>

<p>firstly i’d love to see those studies. you also assume wrong. there are stats and studies showing lower graduation rates and higher drop out rates. what you also fail to realize is that affirmative action is designed to help minorities based on the color of their skin, not on their having a y chromosome. colleges spend their millions on skin-based-minority outreach – not on the sex that outgoes to college by (what i recall, last i heard) 6% over the other (the other being men).
i also believe in logic, perhaps more than you do filmy. the fact that there are non-white peoples with substantially different cultural memes that score just as high as whites do precludes a culturally biased sat. however, i will submit that the sat is culturally biased to an extent – it is biased against cultures that do not place a high emphasis on learning. p.s what are you doing home on a saturday night? writing another paper on bagvha kamafngiej?</p>

353

<p>oh wow you’re complete right. totally my bad! i was reading something else either in your quote of me or my quote of you. if you’re going to use that as your “out” of this discussion, then go ahead. however, my “proof” is quite simple. those students that gain special advantages because of the color of their skin wouldn’t need those advantages if they would have gotten in anyway. as for the sat discussion, i believe that they should be abolished or completely revamped, but if they are looked into <insert discussion=“” with=“” filmy=“” here=“”>.</insert></p>

354

<p>its finals week here, no late night partying for me.</p>

<p>so weve argued and argued, and it all comes down to my one simple question to you. since only 180 black score above 1450, do you believe that only 180 blacks or below should be admitted to tier 1 schools? if you do, then fine. if you dont, then other aspects of their application also have to be taken into consideration. keep in mind, if you are of the opinion that only the 180 should, then that would work out to about 2-3 blacks per graduating class.</p>

355

<p>“you care less about helping black people than you do about easing your sense of white guilt”</p>

<p>or maybe you’re just completely wrong and way off base.</p>

356

<p>Well, filmy, the middle 50% for Penn is a 1340. This means that if you score a 1340 you score better than a full quarter of the other people applying. Excluding donors, URMs, with low scores, the score might jump up a few points (as those numbers make up a small percentage of penn’s incoming class). Again, filmy, you’re assuming that you need a score greater than a 1450 to get admission into Penn. After some research on USnews I found that for a school like Northeastern, which is no Penn, but still good enough to make it into USNews’ category, “Top Schools,” you need an 1150 to score above 25% of the other applicants. To go to the University of Florida, which is a top 50 school, you need a 1200. I also never found the rule that one must go to a top school to succeed or to “get out of compton” as a former acquaintance who goes to Jordan High School in Watts put it. Your (and as with you, i’m not saying this out of spite) veritable propoganda falls apart under with the most passing analysis. I do believe that other aspects besides SAT scores and grades should be taken into consideration, but the color of one’s skin should not.</p>

<p>Perhaps I am wrong and way off base, so now I want you to answer a question for me. If Affirmative Action could be demonstrated to hurt blacks, would you still support it? If yes, then I simply can’t argue because that’s ridiculous. If no, then I still can’t argue because all one needs to do is look at the statistics that have been presented in the last 18 pages of this topic.</p>

<p>Good luck for finals.</p>

357

<p>“I’m going to make this really easy for you. Skin color (you know, black, white, brown) is trivial (you know, isn’t something that we should look at) because it (in case you forgot what my pronoun was talking about: skin color) has no bearing on what type of person one is.”</p>

<p>Your condescention aside, if you’d read what Ive been saying, skin color most definately has a bearing on “what type of person one is.” And its not because some gene predetermined one trait or another. Its because our <em>society</em> breeds race (as well as gender, and as you clearly seem to recognize, class-based) inequality. And it totally does relate to people judging people based on color. And it totally does mean its something that we need to address.</p>

<p>Obviously you don’t agree.</p>

<p>As for the genisis of my response, it was to your cheap shot at ethioman, trully. And while I am glad that “putting my efforts into hating others based on something as trivial as the color of their skin is not something I’d care to do (nor would it be effective at creating the social change I argue for!),” your methods in thread, your argumentativeness…<em>frankly,</em> you come off as an ass and <em>you</em> come off as the person who does’nt want to help anybody. Something I wouldn’t expect from a Mira Costan.</p>

<p>I think if we can agree on anything its that the system is unfair. If only we could stop arguing about whether one of the government’s/private schools’ responses to that system’s inequality is “fair,” then maybe we could get to work on the real issue here.</p>

358

<p>I was condescending because you deliberately mislead the discussion, ostensibly hoping I wouldn’t notice your deceit. You either need to be spoken down to, or you deserved it.</p>

<p>I’d love to see your proof that skin color causationally has a bearing on what type of person one is. Because if it doesn’t (and it doesn’t) then colleges should look for the flute players in flute clubs and people with urban pride in urban clubs. Assuming that skin color adds a certain trait is a dangerous and slippery slope.</p>

<p>I’ve said that people judge others and I’ve said that it is a problem. But, inherent in your stance is justification for hatred and stereotypes. For example, if someone believes that [skin</a> color causationally relates to IQ](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence]skin”>Race and intelligence - Wikipedia) then he is justified in assuming that people with a certain skin color are idiots. If people believe that skin color relates with crime, then people are justified in believing that people with a certain skin color are criminals. In other words, inherent in your decision to believe that skin color is not trivial is justification for action and emotion based on stereotypes.</p>

<p>I have no clue what you mean by calling be a Mira Costan. I’d like you to explain. “Something I wouldn’t expect from a Mira Costan” sounds like a stereotype to me though. Also, I do not appreciate using (rather general and inevitable) ad hominems to discredit my stance. However, I do appreciate your peace offering and your call for consensus. With decisions often relying upon the geographic location of an applicant, we can agree that many aspects of the system are extrinsicly unfair.</p>

359

<p>so yu dont think that they should be in harvard penn stanford etc. you think there SHOULD only be about 2-3 blacks on those campuses. okay. whatever. thats your point and you feel strongly in it. you dont want to take additional steps to diversify thoses campuses. it doesnt mean all that much to you, and whatever, thats what weve come to and thats that.
as to your studies that you so love to refer to, i can quote people too!:</p>

<p>"If the costs of affirmative action outweigh the benefits, then surely the “victims” would know. Over time, they would see that the best black students at second-tier law schools (and some top students do go to second-tier schools for geographic, financial and other reasons) far outperform their peers at more elite schools and have a much easier time passing the bar. That hard truth would be passed from one generation to the next.</p>

<p>But Sander offers no evidence that this occurs. The fact is that thousands of black students admitted through affirmative action have succeeded by working hard and aiming high. The idea that they should lower their sights deserves strong skepticism.</p>

<p>Finally, there’s reason to doubt Sander’s claim that ending affirmative action would eliminate “mismatch” and, with it, racial gaps in law school grades, retention and bar passage. Copious research, which Sander does not confront, shows that the achievement gap at selective universities is because of differences not only in entering credentials but also in the university experience itself. This was confirmed in a recent study by College of New Jersey sociologist Timothy Clydesdale using Sander’s core data set.</p>

<p>Stanford psychologist Claude Steele has shown that the fear of doing badly in school and thereby confirming racial stereotypes generates anxiety among black students that undermines academic performance. In addition, for many minority students, the lack of minority faculty heightens feelings of isolation and makes it difficult to find close mentors. And despite much progress, minority students still face discrimination on campus, both subtle and overt.</p>

<p>Given these factors, it is folly to believe that eliminating affirmative action would eliminate the achievement gap. What’s worse, it distracts us from seeking to improve the climate and quality of the educational experience in ways that enable all students to do their best." - Los Angeles Times</p>

360

<p>the stoned pandas, would you be against AA if income was factored into the equation?</p>