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</p>
<p>Right. So an in-state student at Cal, UVA, or Mich is close to four times worse off than they would be at a place like Dartmouth?</p>
<p>I don’t think he was talking about in-state tuition vs. out-of-state. Its out of state vs. out of state.</p>
<p><em>shrugs</em> Even then, it’d still fall apart when dealing with, say, Cal v. Georgetown. So I think that motto needs an asterisk next to it too. :p</p>
<p>Alexandre - What’s the peer assessment score for MBA programs based on? I know Michigan is especially strong in doctoral programs and business-related research…could that it pushing it up?</p>
<p>That is exactly what is pushing it up. Trust me, its irrelevant. I could care less what other PhDs care about Columbia, I care about what people in my industry think.</p>
<p>So, when does the peer assessment score matter? MBA peer assessment scores are not so much based on PhD research since the Business field is far more practical and hands on than other traditional academic fields. </p>
<p>What about the recruits’ assessment scores/corporate polls? Those don’t matter either? I guess what your fellow MBA students think is more important than what recruiters think?</p>
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</p>
<p>What I meant by “you get what you pay for” is simply my personal view that it’s hard to put a “price” on a top notch education.</p>
<p>Of course, I know I am not the “norm” for your typical student. I had the luxury of not worrying about finances when I chose either undergrad and grad - I simply chose the best places I was accepted.</p>
<p>Now many years out of both undergrad and b-school - I am earning multiples of what tuition cost my parents. I have already paid them back what I borrowed (plus interest - not that they asked me to).</p>
<p>So, I have no debt, I am a high earner AND I am a graduate of the finest academic institutions on earth. Sure, I probably could have achieved what I did without attending Ivy institutions, but my road would have been (IMO): tougher, less certain, with lesser choices and IMO, I’d be earning less than I do now.</p>
<p>My personal experience is simply that my Ivy education has been worth every single penny (and then some).</p>
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</p>
<p>Heh, well, since I want to get a PhD in strategy, it matters to me, but I get your point. From my personal experience (anecdotal, I know, so disregard it if you want), Michigan seems to be highly respected among b-school academics because of its research. Even if peers are asked to evaluate only the MBA programs, I can’t help but think that Michigan’s research prowess might influence them.</p>
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</p>
<p>Ivy_Grad,</p>
<p>If i’m not mistaken, you mentioned that you’re a Princeton grad. I believe there is a gap between Princeton and Dartmouth on the average. You couldn’t take any Ivy’s reputation as it is for Princeton. It’s not my intention to belittle Dartmouth in anyway though.</p>
<p>EDIT:</p>
<p>(Some of you may have noticed that my recent post removed (at my request) - I felt I was giving out too much personal info…)</p>
<p>At anyrate, to address rtkysg,</p>
<p>I am an alum of both Princeton and UPenn (Wharton MBA) - and I am equally proud of both institutions.</p>
<p>Further, I have a “one degree” of separation with a number of other Ivies (having siblings who are Ivy grads and both of my parents are Ivy grads as well).</p>
<p>(Not to mention that many of my closest friends run the “Ivy” gamut from Brown / Columbia / Cornell / Dartmouth / Harvard / Yale)</p>
<p>Not to cross you or anything, I would just think that you shouldn’t use HYP profiles to defend the rest of the Ivies. As you said there was a gap between Ivies (I assumed you include the other elites) and public schools in terms of average quality wise, let’s say Michigan, there is also a gap among the ivies. Hence, you shouldn’t use your profile, which is of Princeton rather than Dartmouth, to backup your arguments. Just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>rtkysg,</p>
<p>with all due respect, when I am specifically comparing Dartmouth vs. Michigan, I am most certainly comparing Datmouth vs. Michigan - not Princeton (or any other school) vs. Michigan.</p>
<p>When did I ever substitute “my profile” (as you put it) in lieu of Dartmouth “to back up my arguments” (as you put it)? I challenge you to find an instance when I have done so.</p>
<p>If you are suggesting that we should only “stick to” the schools we have gone, than the discussion on CC would be very limited indeed.</p>
<p>I am just as familiar or qualified to talk about Dartmouth as any other non-Dartmouth poster out there - frankly, I’d argue I’m more informed than the average poster given one of my very best friends graduated there and I have visited Hanover on more than one occassion.</p>
<p>I’m not really quite sure what your point (or gripe) is.</p>
<p>Perhaps my moniker “Ivy_Grad” compels you to automatically jump on the Ivy criticism bandwagon. </p>
<p>Had my handle been - “xyz123” - I’d get way less needless nitpicking…</p>
<p>Which brings me to another point:</p>
<p>“What in the world does my HANDLE have anything to do with what I am actually POSTING on any given thread?”</p>
<p>Ivy_grad,</p>
<p>Don’t get crossed, I have no antipathy whatsoever towards your profile, and although both my schools are not Ivies, they’re not any less than HYP, and hence please single me out from Ivy fans/critics of yours. So to answer your question: your HANDLE has nothing to do with your posts.</p>
<p>I was originally pointing out that you said:</p>
<p>“Sure, I probably could have achieved what I did without attending Ivy institutions, but my road would have been (IMO): tougher, less certain, with lesser choices and IMO, I’d be earning less than I do now.”</p>
<p>Now doesn’t it seem clear that you’re referring your ‘road’ as Ivy’s path in general?? And what I wanted to say is that there is a gap on the average between HYP and the rest of the ivies. And let’s face it, most employers may not give the name ‘Dartmouth’ the same credit as ‘Ivy’ for which the name HYP come in an instance. </p>
<p>I didn’t plan to attack you or anything, so drop it before you have wilder stuff than merely asking for my gripe.</p>
<p>aite, lets get back to the question, this is useless</p>
<p>1 Harvard
2 Yale
3 Princeton
4 Stanford
5 MIT
6 Columbia
7 Cal Tech
8 Penn
9 Dartmouth
10 Duke
11 Brown
12 Wash U
13 Cornell
13 Northwestern
15 U of Chicago
15 JHU</p>
<p>rest dont matter</p>
<p>Clearly. Liberal arts colleges, public schools, and those you exclude are really just a waste of time (unless you mean the spots outside of the top 15 universities on US News aren’t worth speculating about.)</p>
<p>rtkysg,</p>
<p>A few comments in response to your post:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>1) That specific quote you highlighted was a part of “general” comments I was making about my own education.</p>
<p>2) Everyone knows that threads start at one place and then meander to other points / places - hence, the term “thread”.</p>
<p>3) For you to highlight a very specific quote from a very general comment I was making about my own experiences, and then say - "LOOK!!! You went to Princeton NOT Dartmouth!!! WTH are you talking about??? - is incredibly unfair and unfair use of very selective quotes. Anyone can take anything someone says out of context. </p>
<p>4) As for this “difference” or “GAP” you keep referring to - yes, I fully acknowledge the “GAP” between HYP vs. B/C/C/D/P - but here’s the thing:</p>
<p>If that “GAP” is a “small step”, then the other “GAP” between B/C/C/D/P vs. Michigan is a “giant leap” IMO. </p>
<p>In other words, while you look, point, and say, “woah, hold your horses there buster, just take a look at that gigantic difference there between Princeton and Dartmouth!” - make sure you don’t back up and fall into that relative canyon of a difference between Dartmouth and Michigan.</p>
<p>It’s all a matter of perspective. If your position is, “dude, you can’t talk about Dartmouth and then pawn it off like its Princeton” - fine, first of all, I’ve never done that, but even if I did - let’s be very clear:</p>
<p>The Princeton vs. Dartmouth “differential” is microcosmic compared to the “differential” vs. Michigan.</p>
<p>So, in the end, what was your point?</p>
<p>What do you mean by microscosmic Ivy_Grad, isn’t it only a subjective perception? The fact is that for many fields, e.g. engineering, I don’t see how Dartmouth’s reputation can bring the diploma holder closer to the door of engineering firms. Do you really think Dartmouth grads in science/engineering would beat Michigan grads given that they have similar GPA. The fact that Michigan is not selective in general, given that it has many ‘crappy’ majors and need to canvass a huge number of students, doesn’t mean that Dartmouth is a no brainer choice when compared with Michigan. I doubt many engineer/scientist aspirants would turn down Michigan for Dartmouth. And as the number of Michigan students are high and the selectivity is low, the top 10-15% students at Michigan are arguably as good as top 10-15% at Dartmouth. And as bottomlines, IMO, the differential wow factor between HYP vs. Dartmouth are greater than Dartmouth vs. Michigan.</p>
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<p>First, you take one extremely specific Michigan attribute and then extrapolate that into Michigan > Dartmouth?</p>
<p>Next, Michigan’s COE (College of Engineering) is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COLLEGE - i.e. NOT THE GENERAL UNDERGRAD PROGRAM. How do you take that and try and “pawn” it off as a plain vanilla Michigan undergrad?</p>
<p><em>Sigh</em></p>
<p>OK, so for a hard-core engineer that wants to live breath and crap engineering until he’s six feet under, yeah ok, Michigan’s COE is a better choice.</p>
<p>BUT aren’t we talking about GENERAL UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION?</p>
<p>Yeah, we were.</p>
<p>In which case: </p>
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</p>
<p>Uhm, wow, I couldn’t have said it better myself.</p>
<p>Ivy_Grad, first of all, rtkysg never said Michigan > Dartmouth. Secondly, Michigan Engineering is certainly one of Michigan’s strong points…but not its only strong point. Ross and LSA are certainly as strong.</p>
<p>COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING:
-5,000 undergraduate students
-1,200 graduate annually
-90% find jobs or join graduate Engineering schools immediately after graduating
-200 companies recruiting purely undergraduate Engineers on campus
-Average starting salary $53,000 (2004)
-100 of graduating class joins Consulting firms (Accenture, Booz Allen, BCG and Bain being the most popular)
-100 of graduating class joins Investment Banks (Goldman Sachs, JPM, UBS, Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank being the most popular)
-300 join fortune 100 companies such as GE, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Cisco, Intel, Microsoft, Ford, GM)
-300 go straight to graduate Engineering programs (most popular destinations are Michigan, UIUC, Purdue, MIT, Stanford and Cal)</p>
<p>ROSS SCHOOL OF MANAGEMENT:
-600 undergraduate students
-300 graduate annually
-Average starting salary: $50,000 (2004)
-100+ join investment Banks (JPM, Goldman Sachs, CSFB, UBS, Merrill, Deutsche Bank, Citigroup, Lehman, Morgan Stanley, Lazard being the most popular)
-50 or so join consulting firms (BCG, Accenture, Booz Allen and McKiney being the most popular
-50 or so join fortune 100 (lGE, Ford, GM, Microsoft
-50 or so join major Accounting or Financial firms (PWC, E&Y, Bank One, Wells Fargo being the most popular)
-50 go to graduate school (law school and Econ graduateprograms being the most popular)</p>
<p>LSA:
-15,000 undergraduate students.
-3,500 graduate annually
-150 join top 10 Law Schools
-150 join law schools ranked between #15 and #30.
-100 join top 10 Medical Schools
-150 join Medical Schools ranked between #15 and #30
-550 join respected Law Schools and respected medical schools</p>
<p>It is difficult to know how many Michigan students join elite MBA programs annually because MBA students traditionally leave school for a few years and are no longer at the university when they get their acceptances into MBA programs. However, each year, over 50 Michigan alums join the Michigan’s MBA program. Last year, 15 Michigan alums enrolled into Wharton’s class of 2007. Only 6 universities were better represented…and Wharton is generally not as popular as Kellogg and Chicago among Michigan students, so I would not be surprised if Michigan sent well over 20 alums to each of those two MBA programs on an annual basis.</p>
<p>Michigan does not publish details on graduate school admissions in the traditional academic fields. Unfortunately, there is also no detailed information on what companies LSA students join or on starting salaries either. However, given the success LSA students have in placing into top 10 graduate professional programs, I am sure LSA students meet with equally impressive success in their job search. From the little I know, most join respected firms and typical starting salaries range in the $35,000-$60,000 for the most part. </p>
<p>At any rate, to say that Engineering is better than the rest of Michigan is not accurate. Michigan LSA and Ross are equally impressive to be sure.</p>
<p>“Michigan LSA and Ross are equally impressive to be sure.”</p>
<p>So wrong. That’s like saying Stern and CAS are equally impressive.</p>
<p>Alexandre,</p>
<p>No doubt programs like COE and Ross are top notch - but let’s keep it real for a second - those students aren’t really representative of the average Mich undergrad - they are the “cream of Michigan’s undergrad crop”.</p>
<p>I’ll agree that, on balance, students from the highly specialized programs can be equally as good vs. the general undergrad Dartmouth population - give or take.</p>
<p>But that’s cherry picking plain and simple.</p>
<p>When you take Michigan undergrad population “as a whole” vs. Dartmouth undergrad “as a whole” - Dartmouth’s student body is just plain better.</p>