<p>Ivy_Grad–why the Ivies less Cornell? Why not the Ivies less Dartmouth?</p>
<p>Wow what a long thread.</p>
<p>Because Dartmouth is better than Cornell.</p>
<p>and cornell wasnt even a colonial college. it was founded in 1865</p>
<p>But Cornell is more known nationally and internationally than dartmouth</p>
<p>as much as i am not the biggest fan of it, Cornell holds its weight with employers/other schools</p>
<p>every school / person in academia has the utmost respect for Cornell</p>
<p>the director of transfer admissions at Duke University said, we especially respect Cornell students becuase we know they are not only bright but they have to work the hardest for their degree compared to the other ivies</p>
<p>Cornell is more known than Dartmouth not only nationally but internationally</p>
<p>most ppl never heard of dartmouth;</p>
<p>Yes, well, the people who matter have heard of both. Is a Cornell v. Dartmouth ****ing contest really necessary?</p>
<p>EDIT: Lookit that, I’ve been censored. What would my grandmother think?</p>
<p>rheasilvia,</p>
<p>Cornell has an exceptional undergrad program, don’t get me wrong - let me say that up front.</p>
<p>That said, I don’t think it deserves a place amongst the “Top 10” programs (Ivies - less Cornell + Stanford / MIT / Caltech).</p>
<p>As for why?</p>
<ul>
<li>Weakest undergrad program vs. Ivy peers (sheer size alone hurts it right off the bat - see below for more dets)</li>
<li>Easiest Ivy to get into - (as evidenced by its absence in either the most selective colleges by USNWR and Atlantic Monthly)</li>
<li>Largest undergrad class vs. Ivy peers (Cornell’s undergrad population = 13,600 vs. 4,000-6000 range of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia)</li>
<li>Cornell’s association with NY state-funding (for certain programs) via its status as a statutory college - no other Ivy operates with these kinds of “strings”
<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_college[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_college</a></li>
<li>Not a “Colonial” era university - i.e. only Ivy which was founded after the American Revolution - other Ivies founding date range from 1636 (Harvard) to 1769 (Dartmouth).</li>
</ul>
<p>[EDIT] as Slipper just mentioned, its grad placement is also the lowest of the Ivies (as per the WSJ ranking) - it’s 25 rank places it well outside the other Ivies that all ranked comfortably within the top 15 (for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown) + 16 rank for UPenn.</p>
<p>… those factors above (plus a few others)</p>
<p>I could care less what a researcher in taiwan thinks. Most people know of Ohio State more than Amherst, doesn’t make it better for undergrad. </p>
<p>Dartmouth beats cornell in grad placement, selectivity (student population), strength of alumni network (Dartmouth is beat perhaps only by Pton), and endowment/ money spent per student. Those areas are what matters.</p>
<p>Wash U beats Cornell in selectivity, does it beat it in terms of prestige or grad placement</p>
<p>Rice beats Cornell in selectivity, perhaps grad placement, but not in strength in alumni network or prestige</p>
<p>and Rice and Wash U beat Cornell in terms of spending per student, but certaintly not in prestige</p>
<p>what is ur pt?</p>
<p>ivygrad - </p>
<p>i don’t see how you can say caltech is top 10 for undergrad. yes if you want to major in math or physics or engineering - you can’t go wrong. but what about the majority of people who want to major in english, history, biology, communications, business, economics, or many other majors which…caltech isn’t really great for. cornell obviously is the better choice for the vast majority of people who don’t know what they want to do when they go to college, or change their mind while they are there. infact - i would take many of the ivy schools out of the top 10 undergrad programs. while whatever you want to say about the networking options of a school is somewhat true - if we’re arguing educational quality - its pretty well known that schools like harvard and columbia are much more graduate focused than undergrad focused.</p>
<p>also, the statutory college status doesn’t really affect much. if u read the article cornell controls all parts of the university - it just takes money from the state and in turn the state can appoint a dean to those 4 specific schools. </p>
<p>i won’t argue that its the easiest ivy to get into - but its also known as the hardest to stay in - that says something to me.</p>
<p>also, i dont buy the “non colonial” argument for 1 second. why does age matter? franklin w. olin school is ultra selective and offers a stellar education - and its not even 10 years old. Also, the university of bologna is 600+ years older than princeton…is it all of a sudden a bagillion times better than princeton?</p>
<p>Bball, none of the schools you mentioned uniformally beat Cornell in all the categories I outlined, but Dartmouth does.</p>
<p>strength in alumni stuff, u can’t prove to me that it beats cornell
prestige, u can’t say it beats cornell</p>
<p>selectivity, yes, dart wins by a significant margin
spending, yes, but that is b/c it has such a small undergrad pop</p>
<p>I am not sure what “Colonial era” has to do with anything. I guess Chicago, Cal, Stanford, MIT, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Duke and Northwestern also suck because they were all founded in the mid-late 19th century.</p>
<p>Ivy_Grad and Slipper, I find it unusual that you guys know for a fact that one school is top 10 and another isn’t. I think we can all agree that there are 5 universities are are clearly top 10. But outside those 5, there aren’t any clear cut top 10 universities. There are close to 15 universities that make equally compleeing cases for top 10 consideration. Claiming that Dartmouth is better than Cornell is laughable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I never said it was easy to get into - I’m merely pointing out the fact that it’s the least selective Ivy.</p>
<p>As for your other points:</p>
<p>1) Caltech. Yes, its strength is geared towards the maths and sciences, but you are severely underestimating the quality of its overall humanities program. Bigger picture? In the end, graduating from Caltech is more prestigious than Cornell. Period. You can argue all you want about this particular strength vs. another - but OVERALL? Caltech is one of the hardest undergrad programs to get into period. It’s not even close.</p>
<p>2) NY state funding affects certain programs at Cornell (not all mind you) giving it a quasi-public feel - they are required to accept a certain percentage of in-staters. No other Ivy operates under these conditions. All other Ivies are 100% independent.</p>
<p>3) Non Colonial. It is what it is. Cornell just doesn’t have that kind of tradition or prestige that the other Ivies enjoy - its a relatively smaller point - i’ll grant that - but this is just one of a larger number of issues (which I’ve highlighted) which brings it down a tad.</p>
<p>4) But let’s take a large step back. I have respect for Cornell - its a fantastic undergrad program - I’ve said that all along - we are (as always) splitting hairs like they were atoms. All of these institutions are “elite” and anyone lucky enough to attend them should be rightfully proud. I was just making my opinions about a very short list of the “best of the best” - nothing less and nothing more.</p>
<p>Alexandre, </p>
<p>I’d refer to point no. 4 (above) as to your comments.</p>
<p>Yes, they are all great - we get lost in the trees at times I’m afraid, and I am as guilty of that as anyone.</p>
<p>Alexandre, Dartmouth wins on the intangibles, and I will never be able to prove that. You yourself say HYP has the strongest alum networks, but it just shows you don’t know what Dartmouth is about. Only Princeton surpasses it, and they are pretty much along the same lines. I’d add Amherst, Wellesley, Notre Dame, and Williams to that list. That’s it. </p>
<p>I could care less what Academics think. Its what grad school admissions officers, recruiters, and fellow students think (future leaders - my personal success in terms of networking has been almost exclusively aided by alums from the top 25 schools) - and time and time again it has been shown that places like Dartmouth and Brown do much better than places like Cornell and Michigan in these areas.</p>
<p>A Harvard alum friend of mine said it the other day when I mentioned our CC conversation (to the best of my memory). “Michigan in the same category as Dartmouth and Brown, wow, maybe to the Dean of a college but to most people - no way, not even close.” That notion to me is laughable.</p>
<p>Ivy Grad, claiming that any of the universities ranked in the top 17 or 18 but not among the top 5 (H,M,P,S and Y) is better than another university within that exclisive group isn’t splitting the atom…it is actually irresponsible. It cannot be done because there is absolutely NO difference in overall quality. Cornell is equal to Dartmouth as an undergraduate institution. Full stop. There is no “splitting hair” on this issue. Yes, there are differences and in some ways, Dartmouth is indeed better than Cornell while in other ways, Cornell is better than Dartmouth. But overall, as undergraduate institutions, they are equal. Anybody who claims that one of those fantastic universities is better than the other is either biased on wrong.</p>
<p>Slipper, like I said, I find it amazing that Ivy Grad and yourself can measure the intangible. I admit I do not know that much about Dartmouth…no more than you know about Michigan. In fact, given all the things you say about Michigan, I think you know less about Michigan than I know about Dartmouth. After all, I clearly state that Dartmouth has an amazing alumni network and that it is one of the top 10 universities in the nation. I am not claiming that Michigan is “way better” than Dartmouth and yet, you seem convinced that Dartmouth is clearly better than Michigan…and Cornell. </p>
<p>If somebody told me that Dartmouth were as good as Michigan, I’d be honored because I respect Dartmouth a great deal. You on the other hand are insulted should somebody suggest that Michigan is as good as Dartmouth because you truly believe that Michigan is so decidedly beneath Dartmouth. I hope you do not underestimate other things in life the way you underestimate some universities. </p>
<p>And don’t bother telling me what the few dozens of people (even if they are Harvard alums) that you know think. They hardly count in the large scheme of things.</p>
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<p>This contradicts itself. If you care about grad admissions, you care about the academics.</p>
<p>Hey Alex, we’re all friends here right? I think these discussions get a bit silly after awhile.</p>
<p>You’ve gained my utmost respect over the past year let me say that upfront - not to mention the fact that in the process my respect for Mich has definitely gone up.</p>
<p>If you represented all Mich alums, they couldn’t have had a better ambassador in my book - if you were a Princeton or Wharton alum - I’d say the exact same thing.</p>
<p>That said, there comes a certain point where we all hold the line at our own beliefs. You aren’t going to be convinced one way and the other side won’t be convinced either. But it is out of 100% respect that I say this: sometimes we just need to agree to disagree on some issues.</p>
<p>I’ll also add that the many differences we argue about on this site (while I still believe do exist) aren’t the “gaping holes” that an outsider looking in may take away as a first impression.</p>