Us news rankings 2011

Grisam · August 17, 2010, 8:17pm

Not only is UCB a public school, it’s also a large public school. It’s much more likely that the students there are not all geniuses - indeed, most of them probably can’t compete with the student caliber at HYPSM. However, Berkeley offers fantastic resources. The professors are in a league of their own, every single department (as UCBChemEGrad pointed out) is fantastic, and the resources for research, internships, etc. are unparalleled.

seadog.overseas · August 17, 2010, 8:42pm

I assume whoever wrote this was talking about UCB. If so, then it’s a HUGE exaggeration.

TheSaiyans666 · August 17, 2010, 8:46pm

^^Not even HYPSM. I’m even talking about students from universities that are “one level below” (Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Columbia, Cornell, Chicago, Penn, Caltech, and Johns Hopkins). In my experience, many Berkeley undergrads (except EECS) can’t compete with those schools i listed above.

And no, its not over exaggeration. Its personal experience.
But whatever, I’m bored of arguing. Whatever you tell me, I’m convinced that Berkeley’s undergrad school is nearly not as strong as its excellent graduate programs. I don’t see compelling evidence.

And for rjkofnovi’s curiosity, I have absolutely no interest in UMichigan.

ADHDFTL · August 17, 2010, 8:49pm

I wish USNWR used 4 year graduation rates. 6 years is extremely misleading. One of the worst offenders in this category is the UC system. Generally the top two UC schools (UCLA/UCB) have a 4 year grad rate of a dismal 60%. That is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Students are having to go 5-6 years to get a 4 year degree. At the other UC schools the graduation rate is 40%. 40 freaking percent after 4 years. This is specifically why I decided to go outside of California to another college. An extra year or two of time and tuition is horrible.

rc251 · August 17, 2010, 8:58pm

Here’s the graduation rate data for UCs:

I think it’s slightly higher than your figures. UCSB has been lingering around 65%, and the other mid & lower tier UCs hover between 50% and 60%.

warblersrule · August 17, 2010, 9:07pm

While I agree that graduating in four years is highly desirable from a financial perspective, there are a few reasons why that measure is less useful than one might think as a criterion.

1) Many students do internships, coops, or 5 year BS/MS degrees. At some schools, this is the norm (e.g. Northeastern).

2) The UCs enroll far more poor students than some of the elite colleges. To compare Berkeley (~30% Pell Grant recipients) to Harvard (~10% Pell Grant recipients) is unfair. Many students take a year or two off to work or attend school only part-time during the year.

3) Some schools have strict core curriculums that make double majoring difficult. While a student with a single major (and possibly a minor) could have no trouble graduating on time, a double major might require an extra year.

ADHDFTL · August 17, 2010, 9:15pm

I guess they are around 50-60%, but my upperclassmen friends talk about not getting into the classes they need to graduate because the budget is screwed. Insane class sizes, all of California is really hurting right now. I bet we’ll at best see a dip. I’m going to search for more recent data.

To measure graduation rates in 4 years they could simply only include students pursuing a 4 year degree. I’m sure they have the data for that. Since a huge portion of people from californian schools go to UC schools I know a lot of students. They aren’t graduating because they’re poor, it’s because they can’t get into a certain class. Of course some students cannot graduate in time because they are poor, but then again, a lot of students have that issue regardless of college. It’s still important info especially since it would offer meaningful stratification instead of ~90% for every college which is basically useless.

Note: even 60% is quite low, people often assume that UC schools have 80+% graduation rates.

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/596884-usnwr-2009-looking-data-xxi-4-year-graduation-rates.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/596884-usnwr-2009-looking-data-xxi-4-year-graduation-rates.html</a> this is similar to what I recall seeing. I would be very surprised if we didn’t see graduation rates decrease.

fallenchemist · August 17, 2010, 9:28pm

We are all used to 4 years because it is traditional, but there is really nothing magical about it. Warbler has it exactly right, there are so many circumstances that make graduating in 4 years difficult for many, giving some leeway makes sense. Perhaps there should be a 5 year graduation rate? In the absence of creating that, I have no problem with a more encompassing rate of 6 years over 4.

ADHDFTL · August 17, 2010, 9:42pm

Right, but 40% or 50% graduating is huge. Keep in mind a large portion of colleges in the top 50 are 80+%. If this effect was so large, they would undoubtedly be affected as well.

rjkofnovi · August 17, 2010, 9:59pm

“^^Not even HYPSM. I’m even talking about students from universities that are “one level below” (Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Columbia, Cornell, Chicago, Penn, Caltech, and Johns Hopkins). In my experience, many Berkeley undergrads (except EECS) can’t compete with those schools i listed above.”

Elitist snob.

RML · August 17, 2010, 10:07pm

TheSaiyans666, there are bad appples at all schools even at HYPSM or Oxbridge. There are bad apples at Caltech too.

First of all, according to some inside information, the most oversubscribed course at Berkeley is not EECS, but biomed. It’s a relatively new program at Berkeley, but its a hot course for most of its bright applicants.

You claimed Berkeley students can’t compete with any of the schools in your list. I doubt if your claim has substance. Let’s try comparing Berkeley with cornell – an ivy, ranked in the top 15, and like Berkeley, is quite strong in eng’g and physical sciences.

Cornell University: (admitted students)
Acceptance rate: 21%
Early decision acceptance rate: 31%
Top 10% of high school class: 88%
Average HS GPA: no available data
SAT score (25/75 percentile): 1280-1490

UC Berkeley: (enrolled students)
Acceptance rate: 26%
Early decision acceptance rate:
Top 10% of high school class: 99%
Average HS GPA: 3.93
SAT score (25/75 percentile): 1290-1520

Please take note that the Berkeley data are for enrolled students, which historically are lower data than enrolled students. The Cornell data are for accepted students, and historically, accepted data are higher than enrolled data. And to top it all off, Berkeley does not superscore, so the SAT data could have been 20 or so more points higher than reported.

That’s not all, almost everyone at Berkeley was in the top 10% of his/her HS and only 88% at Cornell. I also doubt that the average (UW) GPA of Cornell can compete with that of Berkeley’s. I think there’s a reason why Cornell was not reporting it.

<a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp[/url]”>http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp</a>
<a href=“http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/cornell.asp[/url]”>http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/cornell.asp</a>

ADHDFTL · August 17, 2010, 10:12pm

I hope people remember that this is for undergrad I believe. No one really cares where you go if you’re going to grad school as well (at least that’s what UCSD [huge bio research uni] professors believe). It makes sense too. Why would someone care where you took econ 101? If you aren’t going to grad then it makes a difference, but I doubt many people stop at undergrad if they’re going to an elite college.

drax12 · August 17, 2010, 10:20pm

Brooklynborndad:

nice find brooklynborn…

ADHDFTL:

I guess they are around 50-60%, but my upperclassmen friends talk about not getting into the classes they need to graduate because the budget is screwed. Insane class sizes, all of California is really hurting right now. I bet we’ll at best see a dip. I’m going to search for more recent data. 

To measure graduation rates in 4 years they could simply only include students pursuing a 4 year degree. I’m sure they have the data for that. Since a huge portion of people from californian schools go to UC schools I know a lot of students. They aren’t graduating because they’re poor, it’s because they can’t get into a certain class. Of course some students cannot graduate in time because they are poor, but then again, a lot of students have that issue regardless of college. It’s still important info especially since it would offer meaningful stratification instead of ~90% for every college which is basically useless.

Note: even 60% is quite low, people often assume that UC schools have 80+% graduation rates.

USNWR 2009: Looking at the Data XXI (4-Year Graduation Rates) this is similar to what I recall seeing. I would be very surprised if we didn’t see graduation rates decrease.

The link rc251 provided [for Cal](<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/accountability/index.php?in=1.2&source=bk”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/accountability/index.php?in=1.2&source=bk</a>) doesnt match up with your linky… I really hate things that dont match, eg, separately quoted roiled statistics, quantum physics versus classical, etc, yeah, string theory… RIIIIGHT. This isnt a rail against you ADHDFTL…

ADHDFTL · August 17, 2010, 10:26pm

RML, I’ve never seen SAT scores that high for berkeley.
USNWR says:
1290-1500 for cornell
1230-1470 for UCB.

While Cornell’s admission policies are unknown to me, berkeley’s are a joke. Not only is the essay basically not even read, but huge points are given out on whim for what most people on CC consider “fake EC” (e.g. founding some random clubs). Additionally there are plenty of underperforming HS in California which can bolster their % in top 10%. They basically select for GPA and not much else. For this reason it’s very easy to take a lot of easy classes and have a 4.0.

Another thing to consider: because not being in the top 10% is unacceptable at berkeley, you’ve eliminated a good portion of students that are certainly better than the top 10% at failmobile HS. Someone previously mentioned 6 of the top 25 Highschools are in California. Do you think the top 10% from those schools are going to Berkeley? Nope. They’re going to HYPSM. As a result anyone really not in top 10% at those schools goes OOS.

State schools definitely have a rep for cursory admissions processes and that is very true at the UC system. GPA (to an absurd degree) and SAT (to a lesser degree) are king. Amazing internships, inventions, and accomplishments are not really relevant. Cornell students are likely more accomplished with their EC involvement. UCB recently accepted less qualified OOS students that were willing to pay 55k over in-state students due to the budget crunch. Think about that.

That said, the UC system seems to be more about social mobility than other colleges. A large % of UCB students are poor or have had harsh lives. I don’t think that is the roll a college should have, but nonetheless they should be commended for helping out California’s poor.

Drax12: Yeah the data doesn’t match. I’m sure that data is older (trend going up), but that doesn’t mean it won’t go down as a result of this crunch. The state is walking away from the UC system (and the state is in trouble too). Regardless, both are pretty mediocre results for an academic powerhouse of research.

RML · August 17, 2010, 10:33pm

ADHDFTL, You know that I didn’t make that up.

Click this: <a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp[/url]”>http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp</a>

But Like I said, there are bad, rotten apples at all schools. So, if there are bad apples at Harvard, the more there are at Berkeley. But if there are bright kids at Harvard. The more that there are at Berkeley.

kb10 · August 17, 2010, 10:44pm

As a Michigan Alum, I will simply not look at this bs ranking anymore, Michigan at 29? I’ve worked long enough to know that Michigan’s not the #29 research University in this country.

ADHDFTL · August 17, 2010, 10:51pm

I’m seeing 1270-1510 which is a bit lower but nonetheless higher than I’ve seen on other sites…hmm
[Facts</a> at a glance - UC Berkeley](<a href=“http://berkeley.edu/about/fact.shtml]Facts”>By the numbers - University of California, Berkeley)
Indicates lower scores/GPA for admitted…strange that it would be so much higher than they admitted. Generally the reverse is true as you noted. Stats are for 2010. Perhaps transfers are factored in for USNWR rankings?

That’s one reason why Berkeley undergrads may seem less competent. Transfer student quality is quite mediocre compared to the incoming class at Berkeley. The same is true for all UCs. My dad’s a professor at a UC and he says the difference is often (not always ofc.) apparent if someone has transferred in. At least for UCSD the transfer only requires a GPA of 3.0 which is below average for a community college. They’re desperate for spots. I believe transfers are over 1/3 of the graduating class. Something to keep in mind if you’re trying to avoid the bottom end.

Also I’d like to apologize if you felt I was attacking you in any way. I was genuinely interested in what the source was since this is out of line with what I have seen on other areas of Berkeley’s website (as linked above).

RML · August 17, 2010, 10:55pm

ADHDFTL, Berkeley admissions officers read essays twice at least. [YouTube</a> - UC Berkeley Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“UC Berkeley Undergraduate Admissions - YouTube”>UC Berkeley Undergraduate Admissions - YouTube)

It isn’t also true that the large part of the Berkeley student body is poor. Maybe the large part is middle class. But it’s hardly poor. I don’t think poor students can afford the Berkeley education, let alone the very high cost associated with living in Berkeley, a very expensive place to live in.

A lot of Berkeley students don’t come from so-so high schools too. many of them come from high caliber high schools and most if not all of those that have been admitted are those top students of those high schools. Of course, there are not so bright students at Berkeley. But they also exist anywhere - even at HYPSM.

And, lastly, stop comparing HYPSM to Berkeley. No one here is saying Berkeley is as good as HYPSM.

BTW, the data USNews collected were from last year. The data I posted is from this year.

bmanbs2 · August 17, 2010, 11:08pm

Definitely not a lot of poor kids at Berkeley or any UC. The system is set up so the poor kids get stuck at a CSU

RML · August 17, 2010, 11:09pm

ADHDFTL, I believe Berkeley does not ask SATs from transfer applicants. Transfers have different admisssions criteria - getting into Cal would be a differnet ball game for them. The course work at their last school attended is what will be evaluated. I have no clear idea and ample information about transfer students at Cal, but I won’t prejudge them just yet. All I know is that many of them go on and become worthy alumni of Cal.

Us news rankings 2011

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