UT Austin (Plan II) vs. W&M (Monroe Scholar)?

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DC, a classics/ancient history major with an eye toward grad school or law school in the future, is torn between two very different schools: UT Austin (Plan II) and W&M (Monroe Scholar).

One is a better fit and the other is a better value. While fit and cost will factor into the final decision, the purpose of this post is just to gain information from an academic reputation standpoint.

All other variables being equal, would one school/program provide an appreciable advantage academically or carry more weight with grad/law schools than the other? Thanks in advance for any input!

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Thanks for the message tsbna44! Not sure why your post was flagged. I didn’t see anything objectionable there.

Appreciate the comments! Both are in budget. We will evaluate fit and cost before making a decision, but this post is purely about academics between the two.

Any thoughts in that regard would be appreciated. Thanks!

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Then I go back to does the curriculum differences matter to her as well as the additional enrichment from Monroe or Plan II?

Both are outstanding - one smaller and more remote although plenty around. The other huge in a large city.

She might ask to speak to student ambassadors in each program - for more insight.

My guess is this is a win win - both are great but are the environments both great for her ? I don’t think anyone here can answer. We don’t know her.

Also given the interest in ancient history, might one offer more variety course wise ? You might look at that and faculty size to make sure both are robust. My guess is W&M will be.

@Shelby_Balik is a history professor. Not sure if we have a classics here but she might have insight. I know ancient history might lean more classics.

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Hi – all can say is that both schools are tremendous in history, but at W&M, students get more chances to work more closely with their professors. At W&M, that could mean working on research projects, including digs. With an interest in ancient history, your kid would probably end up in the Classical Studies program (also fantastic, though I can’t say much more because it’s not my specialty) – it looks like historians with specializations in the ancient world are there instead of in the history department. That department offers some cool opportunities, including a joint undergrad degree with St. Andrews. But UT-Austin has incredibly rich offerings in classical studies, as well.

A few thoughts, in no particular order:

  • Cost is important, especially if law school lies in the future.
  • Fit is arguably more important than strengths in the major. Students change their majors all the time (make sure it’s easy to do so and still graduate in 4 years – usually, you don’t have to declare a major until the end of sophomore year, but it’s a good idea to get in a few relevant courses earlier than that in case there are prerequisites). Whether they change their major or not, they’ll want to be someplace where they can be happy for four years.
  • Either of these schools will help your kid get where they want to go after college – they have the name recognition, academic chops, etc.
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Thank you. For background, we are in Texas (long-time transplants, but not native Texans). Kid has grown up in a large Texas city and wants something different for college. Prefers a small, historic campus in a different region.

W&M is a near-perfect fit in terms of size, location, and feel…and would likely have already been the pick if kid had not gotten into Plan II. Although UT overall is not the best fit, Plan II seems ideal.

Being in-state, it’s hard to get an objective opinion. Texas friends (even some non-UT folks) speak of Plan II in hushed, reverent tones and are incredulous that DC would consider turning it down, except maybe for an Ivy+. That has given us pause.

We’re trying to determine if, from a strictly academic standpoint (not cost or fit for the limited purposes of this thread), there are significant advantages for UT/Plan II over W&M/Monroe. Thanks again for the input!

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Clearly she should go to W&M.

It could be that she’ll have this (below) at W&M as a regular student - or could get close.

Go to the right environment for her - based on what you wrote, it’s clearly W&M.

Most Honors are not “job enhancing” - there’s no place on a job app to write about it. You can, of course, discuss in an interview - but you have to get the interview first.

Your student is at a smaller school, in a smaller major, so there’s going to be a lot of rigor (IMHO) and is a Monroe Scholar, which is also enrichment.

Had you included that info up front, I’d have said W&M from the get go.

You have to be somewhere for four years, day after day - so why go to an environment that you don’t want when you have one that seems near perfect for what the student wants?

Just a personal anecdote -

This was my daughter - she got into two of the top Honors Colleges - UGA (now rated #1) and U of SC (historically rated #1/2) - and yet chose College of Charleston. Why - well, honestly, we went to 30+ colleges (her choice) and Charleston was the #4 or #5 college we visited and yet I knew the day we visited, that’s where she’d end up no matter where else we visited. Like your daughter, she had a strong preference for location - and in the end, that drew her far more than any of the Honors Colleges or higher rated colleges she got into. And I personally think, that’s the way to go.

So in your daughter’s case - if she followed a similar path to mine - that makes the choice quite crystal clear (to me).

Good luck

Plan ll core

  1. A year-long first-year course in world literature from the ancients to the present
  2. Three semesters of interdisciplinary seminars which develop and refine students’ analytic and synthesizing capacities
  3. A year-long philosophy course for sophomores
  4. A semester of honors social science
  5. Two semesters of non-US history
  6. A four-semester honors sequence in the natural sciences including modes of reasoning, theoretical math or calculus, life sciences, and physical sciences
  7. A semester of humanities (music appreciation, art history, classical studies, etc.)
  8. A year-long senior thesis, a major independent research and writing project, which is the culmination of a student’s academic program in Plan II
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I have spent over an hour reviewing your situation in the context of the comments and preferences shared in this thread and have concluded that your student was given one option too many.

Hope that helps !

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Normally I try to be fair to both sides of a decision like this, but in this case I feel compelled to just make the case for taking the Monroe.

Not that I have anything against the University of Texas, or fail to recognize the benefits of Plan II, and many families and kids might prefer it for various reasons, including financial.

But holding aside the financial side of things–your Texas associates seem just not to understand exactly what William & Mary offers in general, and then on top of that what the Monroe adds.

I could go on ad nauseum, but William & Mary is a pretty special school, particularly among publics but really in general, and for the right kid is truly one of the best possible choices. I don’t think I need to elaborate, however, because it appears to me your kid already knows this. But the thing I would just emphasize is that if you can afford to go to a college that is a really good fit for you, this is precious because it then maximizes the chances you will really thrive in college. And that is so much more important than exactly where you go.

In other words, I am gently trying to discourage seeing fit and academics as two separate things. In practice, they are related in ways that can really prove critical in a variety of individual circumstances.

Then the Monroe is a significant bonus on top of all that William & Mary offers in general.
Just to be blunt, for those in the know it is a valuable resume line. Same with Plan II, but that is maybe something your Texas associates do not know. Then the housing, the special research program, all this is just making it more and more likely you will get the William & Mary experience you are hoping for. Which, again, is about academics as much as fit.

Anyway, that’s my two cents. No bad choices here, but I would definitely suggest your Texas associates should be making as much of an exception for the Monroe as they would for some general Ivy+ admission (in fact I would personally choose it over some Ivy+ schools, but that is a whole other story).

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To put it in perspective, that’s like comparing an apple to an onion and calling one “better.” For an undergraduate, the bank account makes the decision. Reputation means nothing if you can’t afford it.

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Well, @SMR57 did note that both schools are in-budget, so it really is more apple/orange than apple/onion.

@SMR57, echoing @NiceUnparticularMan, I want to also advocate for W&M. I can write more about the significant differences between big schools and small-to-medium schools we’ve seen in our own kids, if that would help (in this case, Berkeley vs. William & Mary), but a more pressing question: Will your kid be able to go to W&M’s Day For Admitted Students (and the Monroe extension) on Saturday (into Sunday)? And maybe something similar at UT Austin? I think that’ll be the most helpful thing you can do in terms of sussing out signal vs. noise.

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IMO both options will be great for law school. Top law schools accept students from a wide range of institutions. The more important factors will be what the student accomplishes as an undergrad, standardized test scores, LORs, essays, etc.

I would consider the cost of undergrad plus law school in determining affordability.

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I hope OP comes back and gives us feedback or a final answer (which I suspect will be W&M).

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OP here. Back with an update. After visiting both, W&M is the pick.

Not an easy choice. Plan II could help
make a large school feel smaller - and UT’s Classics Dept. has an appealing old-school feel. Ultimately, though, W&M seems like a much better overall fit.

Thanks to all for your input. Go Tribe!

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I had written out a whole post here (back when you were making the decision) and apparently not posted it, but the crux of it was that even if some schools can try to “make a big school feel smaller”, they can’t really make a big school feel like William & Mary. Your kid is going to love it. Congrats again!

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I think those sorts of honors programs can be great if for other reasons (costs, sometimes specialized majors/schools, or so on) you are comparing large public research universities, but you are concerned about some large school effects, particularly in the first couple years. In those circumstances, I think such programs can be an important distinguishing factor.

But I tend to agree if you can afford a suitable college where the whole college is the sort of college you want, then that is typically even better!

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Congratulations! Very happy Tribe family here.

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