<p>It appears, at least at this stage, that many people had a piece of the puzzle of his mental health problems but no one person had enough pieces to see that this person was escalating his odd behavior. </p>
<p>When everyone comes to the same room with their pieces only then can you see the extent of the escalation. Unfortunately, as in many cases, this is not until after an act of violence.</p>
<p>A wonderful French professor, who happens to have been a friend of my sister and brother-in-law, professors here in Canada, was one of the victims of yesterday’s tragedy. Her name was Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, and she and her husband were both VT professors. Her husband, family, and friends agonized for hours yesterday and didn’t have official confirmation of her death until late last night. </p>
<p>After reading this entire thread, I urge everyone to temper their thoughts and feelings on this issue, until the investigation is complete and all the facts are known. There has been much jumping to conclusions posted here, and some truly disturbing posts, some of which have been proven to be inaccurate in the interim. </p>
<p>It’s important to discuss, grieve, get angry and express your feelings when such tragedies occur but it does no one, not the victims or the survivors or their families and friends, any good to assign blame or pontificate without full knowledge of the situation.</p>
<p>AlwaysAMom,</p>
<p>I am so sorry for the loss of this French professor and friend of your sister’s family. The loss is tragic and beyond comprehension. A great great loss. Sending out sympathies. Our hearts are heavy today. </p>
<p>I also agree that there is just too much rush to judgement and to blame.</p>
<p>alwaysamom, what a terrible loss. You are right, we need more facts. Also, it is important to know that it is impossible to compel a person to have treatment. The professor who referred this student to counseling did what he/she could. I have a close relative who is completely crazy, family members can see she is a threat to herself and maybe to others, but have been unable to get help for her because she is unwilling to have psych treatment. Her spouse has not been able to get a judge to agree, although even the local police agree she needs help. At some point she will kill herself or harm someone else. It’s just not that easy to deal with these things.</p>
<p>Re Posts 436 and 437:</p>
<p>Exactly.
(Mental Illness = The Gift That Keeps on Giving)</p>
<p>And people who have a “condiiton,” a word not meant sarcastically but comprehensively, <em>also</em> need regular monitoring. When antidepressants are being taken, their effects & side effects need to be monitored, including levels, dosages. When someone has long-term clinical depression or situational, they also need to be “observed” in a general but structured way. Not punished. Not excluded. Not marginalized. Watched, supported, dialogued with. I’ve said more than once on CC that there need to be more support structures for college students, since they’re all potentially vulernable to at least temporary depression, and realistically vulnerable to the effects of stress, pressure, concern about grades & future job placement.</p>
<p>A campus is a community, not just a collection of buildings.</p>
<p>Alwaysamom–I just got a call from my D, who is an environmental canvasser. She was just at the door of a home in Northern NJ, and the woman who answered was crying and said her sister had died at VT. I wonder if this sister was the professor your sister knew.</p>
<p>D was shaken, felt so bad for the woman. She’d met her last year (she remembers all her “doors”) and they’d had a lovely conversation then.</p>
<p>Earlier today, I found out that there was a horrible crime committed against a student at my S’s school this weekend, and I just feel so saddened and frustrated by what people persist in doing to each other.</p>
<p>Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, it is much harder to get an adult with mental health issues detained or treated against their will than it was years ago. Our society committed cruel injustices against people who were sick. As Spikemom illustrates, sometimes if there is a person actively trying to get treatment for a loved one, it can be difficult. If the deranged person does not act out, if it is more anger and antisocial thoughts, then it is even more difficult to get them committed - hallucinations are a little easier for judges to understand, maybe.</p>
<p>If any good can come out of such a horrendous event, it would be more info to help experts develop a better profile of the person who will commit such terrible acts, and disseminate that profile to teachers, doctors, parents, admin, police, so that disturbed individuals can be identified early, and helped. A more accurate profile also will weed out the quiet middle schooler who draws pix of guns and bombs, just because that’s what middle schoolers do in their notebooks, separating her/him from someone who truly needs help.</p>
<p>Just so sad.</p>
<p>This is one of those times that when all the pieces fit into place regarding the shooter - that hind site is 20/20. Yes - there were clues - but there is nothing that could really be done about this boy and his ‘issues’ until he hurt himself or someone else - or pursued treatment on his own - legally. That is what will be so difficult for many to understand. No one will ever really know what happened to this guy that made him cross over that line to madness. Saying that he knew what he was doing and it would make a never forgotten name for himself doesn’t really make sense to me. His illness took over and he seems to have become psychotic in his actions - his reality was what he did - the reasons will be lost forever tho.</p>
<p>He may have flown under the radar for school admissions - being fairly sane and normal at that time - at least on paper.</p>
<p>Epiphany - anyone who has mental illness/depression also has rights - they have the right to take/not to take medication - go to/or not go to counseling/md appointments, etc… You cannot force anyone to do those things - they have to agree to and participate in their own illness - and many don’t/aren’t able to comply - sadly. Until the person does something - harm themselves/harms another - or threatens to - there is very little one can do about it/them. Many hands were tied regarding this guy.</p>
<p>LaxAttack - I was thinking the same thing, re: Stephen King. If we characterized writers/potential writers by what they write and judge their work to indicate a possible psychotic break, then you’d have to lock up/medidcate half the writers out there. Unfortunately, this individual seemed unable to channel his negative feelings constructively into his writing.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, I agree with you that it’s not the job of us as individuals to spot and interpret another’s anxieties/potential psychotic behavior. Most of us aren’t experienced as clinical psychologists to address these issues positively; the best anyone can do is listen to people if/when they chose to talk. You can’t just approach everyone whom you categorize as a “weirdo” and assume you’re going to be able to help them with their “issues.” When something of this magnitude happens, it’s always very easy to have 20/20 hindsight.</p>
<p>As for preventing something like this again? How can you prevent such a random act of violence? How could we prevent 9/11? You can’t. You can only plan what to do if and when the unimaginable happens. There is not always a reason why horrors happen.</p>
<p>I’m sure most of what I said will be misinterpreted, but I can’t help it.</p>
<p>I agree with everything you say, Erin’s Mom, except that it would be better, in my opinion, if people couldn’t get their hands on guns so easily. It’s damned hard to kill 32 people with a knife.</p>
<p>It isn’t true that no one did anything. I just an interview with the former English Dept. chair, who, when his writings were directed to her, took them to the counseling center. Since he hadn’t overtly threatened anyone, they could do nothing. She decided to teach him one-on-one to keep him away from other kids. She said he hardly said a word the whole semester, and didn’t open up. She recommended he seek counseling. There is a question as to whether or not he was on anti-depressants. I did not post before on some threads because I knew that people would jump all over me as being insensitive. But I remember threads here from kids who were fighting to stay in school with mental illness and all the support they received. Quite frankly, if someone is mentally ill, I would rather they went home, got some heavy duty treatment, and stayed away from where my child is. I am NOT saying that they all would do this, but who can predict? It is in their best interest to get well, and the stress of school on top of everything else can’t be good for them. And somehow, people think that keeping them in school is the best for them. But what about the other students? Common sense says to get the kid well, then worry about their future - career, etc. There won’t be a future if they aren’t well, anyway. As for the school - catch 22. Kick him out and get sued. Keep him and get sued. Common sense has gone the way of entitlement.</p>
<p>EJR1 - common sense has gone the way of the law. Yes - someone took notice - but under the law - there was nothing she could do - she was even told that by the counseling center. I guess one would have to give credit for her paying attention to him - but in the long run - there was nothing anyone could have done to get this guy gone from VT. Had he said ‘I want to kill myself’ - or injured himself - or another person - in any way - then action could have been taken. He was an adult - his decisions were his - no one could force him to to anything.</p>
<p>I know many a college kid - who are being treated for depression - who suddenly stop their meds - cuz they think they are fine - and down they spiral - over 18 - no one can force treatment on them. That is the law. Sadly our society now pays a horrendous price for this young man’s illness and the things that he did :(</p>
<p><strong><em>SCARY THOUGHT</em></strong></p>
<p>Maybe there was nothing anybody could have done? It’s easy in hindsight, 20/20, but the way I see it this kid legally obtained a firearm, may have had some depression issues but that’s deff not unheard of at the college level, and wrote some violent plays…once again something that isn’t unheard of or should be some huge warning siren. One could argue if they could have closed campus after the 1st shooting, but even I disagree with this. I think they properly conducted the situation.</p>
<p>I just dont like it when people try to place blame on all sorts of factors. Parents, video games, violent tv, rock and roll music, waffles…I mean cmon, some people just snap??</p>
<p>CNN interviewed the gun shop owner who sold the 9 mm to the shooter a month ago. Interesting…shooter filed the serial numbers from the guns beyond recognition, but had the receipt for the gun in his backpack. The gun shop owner said that the gun was purchased legally, after a background check and was paid for with a credit card and receipt issued. He claimed that there was absolutely no red flags about the shooter’s purchase. I’m sorry…what the h…ll does a 23 year old college student need with such a deadly weapon unless he planned to use it. Bottom line, there is NO REASON that 9 mm guns need to be sold to any citizen in this country. Between his two guns, this shooter had enough ammo to shoot each victim 2 and 3 times in just a few minutes. There is NO REASON that a citizen should be allowed to have that much fire power. The only reason to do so is to kill people. We need to start by prohibiting the sale of ALL semi-automatic weapons. Only the military and police need weapons like this, (unless of course you believe as the Utah and Montana militias do, that they are protecting themselves from OUR own government…). For those who demand their “constitutional right to bear arms”, join the Reserves or get a hunting rifle (hate those too).</p>
<p>I don’t think the authorities have said why they thought the assailant had left campus after the first shooting. I may have missed this, but everytime I’ve seen this statement, I’ve seen it couched in terms of them thinking the shooting was “domestic.”</p>
<p>I have to wonder if two people had been shot in an apparent robbery attempt at the burser’s office, if people would have given more consideration to the idea that the shooter might still close by. </p>
<p>But I want to stress that I don’t know enough about the events of the case to judge anyone’s response. It’s just a question I think should be asked.</p>
<p>ejr~</p>
<p>Excellent post, beautifully stated. Definitely a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation for many schools. IMHO, it is <em>more</em> caring to make sure that anyone needing significant intervention is treated and pronounced stable before s/he tackles the stress of school on top of everything else. If it were <em>my</em> child involved, I’d feel the same exact way. What you are suggesting is the <em>more</em> compassionate alternative.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Bluecroo: </p>
<p>Do you honestly think that we would be able to “eliminate” the sale of guns in this country? The fact is no matter what laws we pass there will ALWAYS be guns, people will just use illegal means to obtain them. Personally, if psychos like this are gonna be able to obtain guns, illegally or legally, then I wanna be able to have one as well to protect myself.</p>
<p>“I’m sorry…what the h…ll does a 23 year old college student need with such a deadly weapon unless he planned to use it. Bottom line, there is NO REASON that 9 mm guns need to be sold to any citizen in this country.”</p>
<p>If the criminals are able to get them, then why shouldn’t regular people who want to use it to defend themselves? What does a 23 year old college student need with such a weapon? How about to defend himself when the next nutjob shoots up his school/workplace/public gathering…</p>
<p>Do you really want college kids walking around campus with guns to protect themselves incase this sort of thing happens. What we really need in this country is 18-22 year old frat kids with guns. They have really good judgement on Friday nights.</p>
<p>You need to be 21+ to own a handgun, so it would be 21+ people walking around with guns. And you make it sound like everyone would go out and get a gun…dropping $500 is something I dont wanna do unless I want to learn to know how to use my gun properly. And ya, I wanna be able to have a gun in case something like this happens again…</p>
<p>“It isn’t true that no one did anything. I just an interview with the former English Dept. chair, who, when his writings were directed to her, took them to the counseling center. Since he hadn’t overtly threatened anyone, they could do nothing.”</p>
<p>Of the various things related to this incident that reflect concerns that universities need to create a way of addressing, this worries me the most.</p>
<p>The descriptions that I have read of the student’s behavior, and what AOL has made available of his writing (the plays that he wrote) are things that are alarming. Even his fellow students and English professor realized that his behavior was not normal and could be dangerous. For anyone’s behavior and writing to be so aberrant that people not trained in mental health issues were saying the kind of things that students were saying (i.e. that his behavior seemed like that of someone who could become violent) , and his professor took the time to teach him one on one away from other students, says that they were huge red flags waving.</p>
<p>The kind of illnesses that result in the kind of behaviors that he apparently had exhibited include things like paranoia and paranoid schizophrenia, both of which can result in violence if untreated. His behavior does not sound like someone who was simply suffering from depression.</p>
<p>Colleges need to institute polices in which they can force students to either get a mental health evaluation and treatment if their behavior raises concerns or to have to withdraw from enrollment. </p>
<p>Ironically, in Parents Forum recently, there was a thread in which a student expressed concern that a professor (a psychologist) suggested that s/he get counseling after an e-mail the student sent the professor. Several parents said that they felt the professor had stepped over the line by suggesting such a thing: Those parents felt that professors simply should teach, not make recommendations that have to do with a student’s mental health.</p>
<p>I imagine that everyone now can see why professors are actually obligated to refer students to counseling if the professors think the student may have a mental health problem. It’s also likely that at least some posters also would like to see stronger systems in place by colleges to ensure that anyone who may be mentally ill gets assessed for whether they are ill and whether they pose a risk to themselves and others. </p>
<p>If they could pose a risk, I doubt that there are many people here who think that the college should let them continue taking classes until a mental health professional says they no longer appear to be a risk to themselves or others.</p>