<p>has anyone mentioned his roommates that were interviewed on cnn? i am so glad we teach kids to be tolerant and respectful of others, but how are kids supposed to know where to draw the lines? i believe they did contact the police about him twice–but how many of us tolerate weirdness because it’s not really our place to interfere? and if students did try to help, where would they go? when do you know you need to step in? when are you helping…and when are you meddling into others affairs? some weird kid–and apparently he was weird for a long, long time.</p>
<p>^^It’s tough to know where to draw the line, because for every weird kid who goes off the deep end there are thousands of sometimes even weirder kids whe never do anything harmful or illegal. Do we have a legal right to “step in” with anyone who hasn’t yet done anything wrong? I suspect not.</p>
<p>“Noted U.S. poet Nikki Giovanni, who teaches at Virginia Tech, told CNN that she had insisted that Cho be removed from her class in 2005 because he had intimidated other students by photographing them and by writing obscene, violent poetry.”</p>
<p>OK, I must be living in another world because in high school, at least, this kind of stuff would get you suspended and eventually expelled if it continued. </p>
<p>However, I’ve never thought about what the code of conduct is at my son’s university, if one exists at all. I just assumed. I guess it is something that people will be interested in knowing from now on. I predict parents will be asking questions…“what are expectations in terms of classroom behavior, social behavior and what are the sanctions?”</p>
<p>We went on the tour of VT two summers ago- son was seriously considering going there (it’s an absolutely gorgeous place and has an excellent engineering program). The questions parents asked centered around drinking and partying. No one would have dreamed asking something like, “what do you do to ensure the protection of other students when some psycho-creep starts harassing his peers with photos and violent poetry, stalking girls, lighting fires, and writes disgusting, sick, perverted plays?”</p>
<p>Speaking generally–being weird is not a violation of anything. But students who misbehave, threaten other students, or intimidate teachers are undoubtedly in violation of any college’s student judicial code and can, and should be, be dealt with appropriately by the institution.</p>
<p>As an aside, there is no Federal law that prevents students who misbehave from being suspended or expelled as long as the the disciple is not based on a discriminatory reason.</p>
<p>“”“Originally Posted by JeepMOM
I honestly don’t get this kind of thinking. Why loathe people who are concerned when assault weapons can be easily bought and used to kill dozens of people?”“”“”</p>
<p>WASHDAD -This is not my quote - I was quoting someone else</p>
<p>doubleplay,</p>
<p>At least 2 themes are at issue, if not 3, I think. (1) Consequences for behavior. (2) Campus security (3) Mental health support & follow-up: what is the campus policy & procedure about students perceived or observed to be at risk to self and/or others? Note that the Engl. prof not only communicated to authorities about his weird behavior (& was rebuffed by authorities), but went so far as to (a) teach him separately, and (b) urge him to seek counseling - which he ostensibly resisted, although we do not know whether he sought, and obtained, medical intervention before or after her suggestion.</p>
<p>It is also possible that he had <em>formerly</em> been in fact taking antidepressants & had stopped taking them, or that the antidepressants were inducing mania.</p>
<p>Medication can be extremely dangerous, & an institution has every right to mandate observation & monitoring of anyone within their campus health system who has been prescribed.</p>
<p>Just watching the news that there has been another incident on the campus of VT - at the building next to Norris - maybe it really is time to end the semester and send the students home for safeties sake.</p>
<p>“I’m satisfied that the university did everything that they felt that they needed to in the heat of the moment … but you’ve just got to look at this in the cold light of day and ask those questions,” he told CBS’ “Early Show.”</p>
<p>I AM NOT SATISFIED THAT THE UNIVESITY DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD! First as each and every article coming forth is pointing out this was a VERY VERY disturbed practically catatonic person looming around campus, the fact that both faculty and students knew this means a lot here, what did they really do about it if not to protect him how about to protect the safety of his fellow students?
They all say they tried to help but really, I mean isn’t it a fine line between a persons private life and the moral obligation of the school to come forward and INSIST on help? To give him a warning, to insist he go to the school psychologist, to follow up, to get him into counseling?There were MANY SIGNS here that he had the potential to be violent and act out on what he ultimatley did. I think we will start hearing more about what the University possibly failed to do and think this will be a major wake up call to schools around the country to be very vigilant about students where red flags go up based on their words, or actions.</p>
<p>epiphany, and this kind of case is the “perfect storm”…student who is mentally ill, acting creepy, refusing to participate in class discussions, scaring his peers and teachers, writing disturbing, inappropriate, violent messages, and authorities who do not have the means/rights/power to deal with it.</p>
<p>Any one of those things- probably no can do. But all of those things? I think colleges ought to be able to do something.</p>
<p>"They all say they tried to help but really, I mean isn’t it a fine line between a persons private life and the moral obligation of the school to come forward and INSIST on help? "</p>
<p>If it’s true that the student had been stalking women students and had set a fire in the dorm, I agree with you and also think that the administration should have kicked out such an obviously troubled student.</p>
<p>However, if his behavior was limited to acting weird, then there wasn’t anything that the university could do to insist that he get help. That’s because if all he was doing was acting oddly, he was not an obvious danger to himself or others (i.e. wasn’t making threats, trying to kill himself, etc.) Creeping out one’s professor and classmates because one refuses to talk in class, and submits stories that are unusually violate isn’t enough reason to kick someone out of a college. </p>
<p>I have read that an antidepressant was found among his belongings. It actually may have been that he was getting some medical help. If he was getting such help, I wonder if he was prescribed the medication by a regular doctor who mistook a psychosis for depression or correctly prescribed an antidepressasnt, but didn’t follow the student closely enough to realize that the medication had led to a psychosis.</p>
<p>If as I suspect the student was schizophrenic or psychotic, the student would have needed more help than most college counseling centers can offer. I don’t know if a college can kick out a student for having that kind of illness particularly if the student is functional as it appears the student was since he was going to class and getting his cousework done.</p>
<p>I would even take it a step further, though. For example- the classroom behavior, refusing to speak in an English class. I’m assuming discussion, give and take, is part of the learning process. If a student refuses right off the bat to participate, I don’t think it is out of line for a teacher to take him/her aside and recommend that this class is not appropriate, and to either change the attitude or withdraw.
What would an art teacher do if a student appeared on the first day and refused to take up a brush? Or a music student refuses to play his instrument? </p>
<p>As far as being referred to counseling by his teachers- again, if a school feels a student might be potentially dangerous, to the point that the faculty initiates the process of counseling, then they have the right to see to it that he is following through on his counseling or ask him to withdraw. Like a previous poster said, at some point the danger to society makes the treatment of mental illness necessary, in which case it shouldn’t be a choice.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/17095661.htm[/url]”>http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/17095661.htm</a></p>
<p>A while ago, in threads on Parents Forum, many parents indicated that GWU was being insensitive when it virtually immediately suspended a student and escorted her off campus after she had been suicidal and had gone to the campus hospital for treatment.</p>
<p>The case at Virginia Tech is an example of why GWU probably acted that way.</p>
<p>Clearly the shooter in the Virginia Tech tragedy was suicidal and homicidal. If he had acted in the way the girl did at GWU when she contacted the counselors about being suicidal, it would have been a mistake to allow him to remain on campus. Indeed, it would have been a mistake to have allowed him to linger on campus or to leave without an escort.</p>
<p>The other recent Parents Forum discussion that comes to mind is the situation posted by a student who feared he had ruined his relationship with his psychology professor because in response to something the student had e-mailed, the professor had suggested that the student seek counseling.</p>
<p>Many parents said the professor had overstepped his lines, and professors should only be concerned about students’ classwork. Many posters also assumed that the professor had overreacted.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, as we can see from Virginia Tech, professors do recommend counseling to students and can have extremely good reasons for doing so. </p>
<p>A related thought: I am wondering whether the school had been compiling documentation on the shooter and was trying to kick him out or force him into treatment or more extensive treatment. That may have been what led to his rampage – his anger at the administration trying to get him into help.</p>
<p>It is so sad when a young adult decompensates. Commonly delusions take on paranoid or persecutory tones, so they think that those who are genuinely trying to help them are part of a conspiracy. Hence, they will often rebuff attempts to get them treatment or to take medication, which they may think is poisoned. Besides, they often think that there is nothing wrong with them, so why would they need treatment? It is a vicious cycle.</p>
<p>I am not an expert by any means, but I have read quite a bit about antidepressants and depression, and people I know well have been treated for depression with antidepressants. I have never heard of depression or anti-depressants being associated with behavior like Cho’s. I agree with Northstarmom that it is likely he had a different type of mental illness for which antidepressants are not the proper treatment. The repeated mention of the fact that he may have been taking antidepressants in the media, as if this fact is some kind of clue or evidence to explain his behavior, is misleading and actually serves to perpetuate false information about depression and its treatment.</p>
<p>I cross posted with Jym and NSM who are both trained in the field of psychology. I would welcome their opinion as to whether my post #615 above is correct.</p>
<p>Forgive me if this has been mentioned before…</p>
<h2>I don’t understand this news item:</h2>
<p>"Today, a Virginia state police affidavit said that a bomb threat note was found in the vicinity of the shooting suspect, and it was ‘reasonable’ to believe it was connected with the shootings. A warrant was issued for Mr. Cho’s dorm room to search for tools, documents, computer software, weapons, ammunition and explosives. </p>
<p>The authorities also released an affidavit for a police warrant to search the apartment of a man identified as Karl David Thornhill to look for firearms, ammunition, bloody clothing, footwear, and other ‘tangible evidence’ associated with the alleged murders. Mr. Thornhill was said to have given the police conflicting information about the location of his guns and his whereabouts over the weekend. </p>
<h2>Reporters who went to the address on the affidavit were told by a young man at the door: ‘The person you are looking for is not here.’ "</h2>
<p>Who the heck is Karl David Thornhill? Is he not in custody? I know authorities are trying to rule out an accomplice scenario; but how to do you talk to someone enough to become suspicious, have grounds for a search warrant and not have that person in custody?</p>
<p>“would even take it a step further, though. For example- the classroom behavior, refusing to speak in an English class. I’m assuming discussion, give and take, is part of the learning process. If a student refuses right off the bat to participate, I don’t think it is out of line for a teacher to take him/her aside and recommend that this class is not appropriate, and to either change the attitude or withdraw.”</p>
<p>The professors were alarmed enough about his behavior to contact the counseling center and police, who told them that the students’ behavior didn’t warrant their intervention.</p>
<p>How comfortable would you feel in asking a student whom you felt was potentially violent to withdraw from your class? The professor also couldnt’ force him to withdraw from the class. The professor could reflect his lack of participation in his grades if the prof’s grading standard allowed that.</p>
<p>I was in a situation once with a student who said vaguely threatening things against me. He seemed nervous, was wearing sunglasses, and in a rambling conversation about how he thought my grading standards were too rigid, muttered something about sometimes feeling angry “like those postal workers.”</p>
<p>He didn’t threaten me directly. I knew that I didn’t have enough to go on to get him kicked out of school, etc. However, yes, the student scared me and I was very happy when he took my suggestion and withdrew from my class because he didn’t like my grading standards.</p>
<p>The student graduated and last I heard he was teaching in a public school and had a side job as comedian. Is he a ticking time bomb or was he a person who was temporarily under stress and behaved different from his norm when he talked to me that day?</p>
<p>MotherofTwo,
I agree with you. His behavior sounds like schizophrenia to me (which can have a depressive element, but depression isn’t the main illness). Some of what I’ve read about the note that he left behind has the religiosity that people who have paranoid schizophrenia exhibit. The anger, hostility, extreme withdrawal, blunt affect, lack of facial expression also indicate schizophrenia to me. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, lots of antidepressants are prescribed by nonpsychiatrists who don’t know how to differentiate between depression and other illnesses.</p>
<p>Must admit Nikki Giovani’s perfectly timed and inspired thoughts brought me to tears and was the perfect ending to a very, very moving service. To see these college kids, looking like all college kids, in their jeans and orange/maroon t’s and hoodies standing clapping, chanting and crying brought home how out of place and surreal this horrible incident really was.</p>
<p>This is no ones fault. There will and should be changes but this is no ones fault.</p>