Does ANYONE disagree that it is better for society at large for 96+% of the population to be vaccinated? Is ANYONE here arguing that as between the choice of (1) everyone vaccinated vs. (2) everyone not vaccinated that society as a whole would be better off with everyone NOT vaccinated, i.e., NO herd immunity in the population? I don’t think so.
I don’t think even the most rabid anti-vaxxer is arguing that. Instead, their argument boils down to a claim that because of the civic responsibility of everyone else, they should be able to avoid even the infinitesimal risk from vaccines. I think the true disagreement is over how close are we to a critical mass of free riders that will threaten the whole system. The scientific community is in agreement that we are reaching – or have reached – that point now.
These are EXACTLY the conditions under which legislation mandating compliance by all healthy people is warranted.
Let’s assume for a moment, counterfactually, (1) 100% of the population besides your kids were vaccinated; and (2) there was some teeny tiny – near infinitesimal-- but real risk that the vaccine cld cause some harm. Under those conditions (which don’t exist), there would be very little risk to the individual person from not vaccinating, and if the individual were to act ONLY in his or her best interest, it might be rational for the individual to opt out. In other words, the incentives for the INDIVIDUAL are at odds with the collective good.
Everyone can see the problem – if too many individuals opt out, the staggeringly important collective good of having a vaccinated population is threatened. In these conditions, you NEED laws preventing opt outs. Or, at the very least, a lottery to determine who gets the benefit of being a free rider (just kidding about the lottery. There are already plenty of us who have “won” the genetic lottery of having no choice but to opt out for legitimate health reasons).
I honestly have NEVER heard the argument that society as a whole would be better off with NO vaccines. If someone wants to correct me, please chime in.
Ok, I’ve gone from thinking you were uniformed to now thinking you are just being dishonest. The reports to VAERS are not vetted for cause/effect. Presence on the VAERS website in no way means that the adverse reactions “were from vaccines.”
@nottelling In many places in the country we’re past that critical mark. In an earlier post, in some places in Maine, for example, but in several other places in the US rife with antivaxxers, the vaccination rate is as low as 80% for young children. This is far below the critical point of 95%+ needed to protect everyone who cannot be vaccinated, because of other underlying health issues, such as being a newborn, being immune-compromised, etc. As a result normally healthy young people succumb to these diseases.
The website states that they follow up. I thought those cases are those they follow up.
@musicamusica No, the argument isn’t based on that. However, other posters were quoting randomly, so I figured that to be on par with everyone, (since we have to hold group mentality), it would be sensible to do the same.
@nottelling and @dustyfeathers my parents live in one of those below critical mass places. Outbreaks of whooping cough and measles are now routine in the schools there and they’re often being shutdown to prevent the spread. Luckily, Michigan passed a law last year that makes it much more difficult for parents to be lazy. (And yes, that’s what they were doing. Much easier to just go to a school and sign a piece of paper to say you’re “opposed” to vaccines than actually get the vaccines. Once that option was no longer available, vaccine rates shot up.) http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/01/michigan_vaccine_waiver_rates.html
My mom is like me and has a pretty shot immune system. She has a much more mild autoimmune disease than I do but she’s still highly susceptible. She also happens to be a grandmother figure to a neighbor’s child because the neighbor is a single mom so she is often watching baby boy. (Baby boy is now a toddler but he will always be baby boy to me.) They’re now very careful because even though baby boy is fully vaccinated, we’re not sure what he might be bringing home to my mom due to the low vax rates. I’m really hoping that by the time baby boy is in school, their area will be back to herd immunity rates.
It has been established in earlier posts that @CharlotteLetter is still in high school so she probably has not had to face the decision to vaccinate her own children.
I hope we have many young people like @CharlotteLetter reading this thread because they will soon have to make decisions about their own vaccinations. Vaccination isn’t just for little kids. Parenthood may be far away for @CharlotteLetter and her peers, but adulthood is pretty close.
In fact, I hope that the information in this thread is reaching the OP’s son, who has apparently never received any vaccinations. He is going away to college, which suggests that he’s either a legal adult or soon will be one and therefore will be making his own medical decisions. I hope he gets the information he needs to make truly informed, science-based decisions about getting vaccinated.
I sincerely hope you, Charlotte, take some statistics and science courses along the way and learn critical reading skills for how to evaluate and understand what sources are saying- ie what the VAERS site actually shows.
I’m not being snarky- I truly hope high schools teach the skills necessary to do these things. I already lamented how many individuals did not develop these critical skills at a young age.
Just ti clarify – I KNOW we are beyond the point where the critical mass has deteriorated in many areas. It is a crisis brought on by the very free rider problem I identified and the very fact that 100% compliance among healthy people was not mandated by law.
Even if the anti-vaxxers are right and for THEM and for THEIR children and the choice not to get vaccinated was the correct one, I think a re-evaluation is necessary when going to college and living in a dorm or dorm like setting. The climate is just different at college than it is in the hometown schools where almost everyone is vaccinated or has access to top medical care.
Boulder is an anti-vaxxer haven, and also the epicenter of a lot of whooping cough outbreaks. Even with 90% of the population immunized, there are still outbreaks of whooping cough that are much higher than the national average with 95-96% vaccination rates. Now add the college kids, add all the foreign students coming in and an unvaccinated kid from the Midwest is just a petri dish waiting for the germs to arrive. While most healthy 8 year olds can survive a case of the measles and miss two weeks of school without long term effects, most college kids can’t afford to miss 2 days of classes, and 2 weeks is out of the question. Thirty days? That’s just a semester down the drain.
I think other college towns are like Boulder, with communities that promote free choice and educated parents who choose not to vaccinate. Add in the college kids, immigrants, foreign travel for many and it is just a germ stew.
Even if I would have been an anti-vaxxer, I would have had to re-evaluate because of the kids I ended up with. First child was a micro-preemie and couldn’t afford to get anything, not chickenpox, not measles, not the flu, not RSV. I started to get flu shots at the recommendation of her pediatrician because she didn’t want me to infect my daughter. Second child came from China and had no natural immunities, or at least none to US germs. She got everything - flu, colds, strep, and when she got them, she was really really sick. She did not need to get preventable diseases too.
What was right for the child as a child may not be right for the adult college student.
“I only have a heart that can feel the pain of both sides.” @CharlotteLetter these are the feelings I am referring to. I know that you have a brain. Brain trumps heart. Good luck in college. And remember, brain trumps heart. Just as verifiable science trumps random internet searches.
When the rubella vaccine came out, everyone in my Catholic school, not of child bearing age, were lined up and vaccinated. Every. Single. One.
I went to school with someone who was deaf due to contracting one of these “harmless” childhood diseases at age 14.
Any child not vaccinated due to personal reasons should not be allowed on a college campus. In fact, at my older daughter’s U, said young adult would not be allowed. Vaccines were required.
Your so-called morals end when it puts immuno-compromised people at risk.