Vegetarian?

Classof2015 · July 7, 2011, 1:51pm

Mathmom – good point – ‘healthy’ is relative. If you’re used to large portions of meat every night, then switching to vegetarian is a huge improvement, health wise. But if you’re like D, whose favorite foods are fruit, vegetables, organic chicken, fish, and finally, rarely, meat, she is not going to be eating a healthier diet, just a different one.

The Obama administration put out the “plate” – a visual aid to show people the relative portions of meat, vegetable and starch. Supposed to be better at educating people about good food choices than the old food pyramid. I think if people increased the amount of fruits and vegetables and simultaneously decreased the amount of meat, it would have many benefits.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 3:47pm

I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest this is true. There is nothing “unhealthy” about eating meat. It’s actually a terrific source of protein. A much stronger case could be made that eating grains may be “unhealthy”, imo.

It’s fine to not like eating meat for a variety of reasons, but the belief that eating meat is somehow unhealthy is probably not accurate. If anything, it is probably a bit more challenging to have a healthy diet if you don’t eat meat as you have to pay attention to getting adequate protein and adequate fat.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 3:53pm

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There are really two issues. One is getting enough good fats (fish oils, olive oils, etc.) This is possible to do as a vegetarian, but more difficult if the motivation for becoming a vegetarian is the false belief that fat is “bad”.

The other issue is that eating insufficient fat almost certainly means eating an excess of carbohydrates and, quite possibly, an inadequate amount of protein.

woeishe · July 7, 2011, 3:53pm

You can get adequate protiens and fats from fish and acai berries. Red meats have significantly more saturated fats and clog arteries.

bclintonk · July 7, 2011, 3:58pm

No doubt this is true in some cases. I’ve known a few teenage “vegetarians” who didn’t eat vegetables. Their diet seemed to consist mainly of chips, soda, and mac-and-cheese. A train wreck in the making.

But with just a little bit of time and attention any conscientious vegetarian can eat an extremely healthy and well-balanced diet that is, in fact, much healthier than the average omnivorous American’s diet. Some studies have suggested that on average Americans get 1/3 of their caloric intake from junk foods—soft drinks, desserts, and salty snacks. On average Americans ingest too many calories (3,770/day, v. a global average of 2,833), resulting in 66% of us being overweight, according to the CDC. We eat too much red meat, too much saturated fat, too much trans-fat, and too little fiber, the result of eating too few fruits, vegetables, and whole grains. On average, vegetarian diets in the U.S. tend to be lower in saturated fats and sodium, lower in total caloric intake (but within recommended levels), and higher in fiber, magnesium, folate, potassium, and antioxidants than the average non-vegetarian American diet. These differences are associated with a well-documented lower incidence of obesity, lower average body-mass index, and less coronary heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, and some types of cancer, resulting in an overall lower mortality rate among vegetarians. A meta-study across several Western nations found the incidence of ischemic heart disease 34% lower among ovo-lacto-vegetarians than among meat-eaters. Most vegetarians, especially (but not exclusively) ovo-lacto-vegetarians, find it quite easy to get an adequate supply of protein, oils, and essential nutrients; indeed, most of the vegetarians I know are more diligent about ensuring adequate intake of all these things than are most of the non-vegetarians I know. And there seems to be a pretty broad scientific/medical consensus that instances of protein deficiency among U.S. vegetarians are extremely rare, found mainly in those whose caloric intake insufficient—but that is equally true for meat-eaters.

Sure, you can find the occasional outlier vegetarian who doesn’t eat a healthy diet. But on average, vegetarians eat a healthier diet than omnivores; and in comparison to the average American, the health-conscious vegetarian eats a FAR healthier diet.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 4:04pm

There’s where the mythology comes into play. There is no evidence that eating saturated fat or cholesterol “clogs arteries”. This isn’t like pouring grease down the kitchen drain.

The way the body processes various blood lipids is far more complex than that. For example, if you want to lower triglycerides and increase HDL “good cholesterol” (two key markers for low cardiovascular disease risk), then you would want to decrease consumption of sugars and grains and increase consumption of unsaturated fats and Omega 3s. Both are difficult (but certainly not impossible) with a vegetarian diet.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 4:09pm

Just to be clear: I am not arguing in favor of the “average American diet”. The average American diet is absolutely horrendous, for reasons that have nothing to do with eating meat. In fact, if Americans actually ate a diet of “meat and two vegetables”, they would be fine. It’s the mass quanities of sugar, grains, and carbs that are doing the damage.

Cardinal_Fang · July 7, 2011, 4:09pm

Exactly so. Also, with even less attention, any conscientious omnivore can eat an extremely healthy and well-balanced diet that is, in fact, much healthier than the average omnivorous American’s diet.

emeraldkity4 · July 7, 2011, 4:11pm

unfortunately there is also a gene that appears dominant, that contributes to high cholesterol regardless of diet.

[Heart</a> Disease Breakthrough? Scientists Find High Cholesterol Genes](<a href=“News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com”>News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com)

My D2 is very active, is just 21 , eats a healthy diet & has high cholesterol.

woeishe · July 7, 2011, 4:25pm

That’s why people should have macrobiotic diets, which calls for the consumption of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains(occasionally fish) and limited refined sugars and oils.

BunsenBurner · July 7, 2011, 4:49pm

woeishe, no, your diet would not supply what i-dad is talking about (Omega-3 oils and unsaturated fats), unless you also eat ample amounts of fish, vegetable oil, and/or nuts and seeds.

bclintonk · July 7, 2011, 5:19pm

I don’t think it’s any more “difficult” (interesteddad’s term) for a vegetarian to eat an adequate amount of walnuts, flaxseed, canola oil, and olive oil than it is for an omnivore to eat an adequate amount of fatty fish. These things are just staples in my vegetarian D1’s diet. And unlike the fatty fish, the vegetarian’s Omega 3 supplements don’t carry high levels of mercury.

Besides, it’s not just total fish consumption that’s the concern on the omnivore’s side. The conscientious omnivore would also need to be concerned about the type of fish (some don’t have much Omega 3, or the benefits of the Omega 3 may be outweighed by other, unhealthy fatty acids or various kinds of contaminants) and how it’s prepared (fried fish is probably on balance bad for your health, because the deep-frying contributes to high levels of LDL “bad cholesterol”).

So I’d say, echoing interesteddad, that getting an adequate supply of Omega 3 would be “difficult (but certainly not impossible) with an omnivore diet.”

Good heavens, listen to me! I sound like a vegetarian! I’m not, I’m an omnivore, but I do think eating about 60% vegetarian meals has made my diet much healthier than when I just assumed there would be meat at virtually every meal. I also love fish and eat plenty of it; but I think I probably get about as much Omega 3 from DW and D1’s vegetarian menu as I get from my fish, with only half as much mercury as if I relied entirely on fish. And my HDL is spectacular, thank you.

BunsenBurner · July 7, 2011, 6:59pm

bclinonk, I posted that in reply to woeishe’s post. The diet s/he is advocating for is not a garden variety “vegetarian” diet; it a diet very specifically centered around consuming only a certain group of foods while limiting anything that has oils (in fact, the poster does not even call it “vegetarian”):

^^There is nothing in that group that would provide a healthy supply of the unsaturated fatty acids. It is mostly carbs and fiber.

I absolutely agree with you that it would be a piece of cake for a “normal” vegetarian to supply the body with adequate amounts of Omega-3 and other beneficial oils simply by eating nuts and seeds.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 7:41pm

There are two more problems with that diet. First, it is lacking in protein sources. Second, it is an extremely high carbohydrate diet and will, therefore, tend to increase triglycerides and lower HDL.

Classof2015 · July 7, 2011, 8:08pm

^so I-dad – what is the ideal diet? What is the right mix?

woeishe · July 7, 2011, 8:19pm

[Macrobiotic</a> diet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrobiotic_diet]Macrobiotic”>Macrobiotic diet - Wikipedia)

coureur · July 7, 2011, 8:47pm

Nothing? Well, good luck with your cancer. I hope the chemo works for you.

[Cancer</a> Project / Factors Contributing to Cancer / Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk](<a href=“http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/cancer_facts/meat.php]Cancer”>http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/cancer_facts/meat.php)

milkandsugar · July 7, 2011, 8:58pm

Dr Joel Furhman proposes to eat a Nutritarian lifestyle which is a plant based diet at each meal, no refined sugars, no oils other than from flaxseeds and nuts. Consumption of raw and cooked vegetables, at least 3 cups of beans a day, 1 cup of grains and 1 oz of nuts a day. He also is the person who designed the ANDI (aggregate nutritional density index)scores which measure the density of phytonutrients per calorie. The higher the nutrient per calorie the higher the score, the better for your health. Kale is the highest 100. Everything else is then measured in comparison to that. Red meat is 8, fish is 15. The aim is to eat as much high nutrient dense foods for each meal.
So vegetarian and vegan lifestyle may or may not be healthy. It depends on your food choices. You can get plenty of plant protein, you do not need red meat to do that. The problem with animal protein is not only the saturated fat and cholesterol, it is also linked to cancers and twice as likely to develop dementia.
Its ok to eat meat, but in smaller portions and as a garnishment, not the main portion of s meal.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 9:02pm

Hah! You linked to the * Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine* site. They are a well-known PETA, vegan anti-meat front group. Everything they do is an anti-meat jihad!

From Wiki:

[Physicians</a> Committee for Responsible Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_Committee_for_Responsible_Medicine]Physicians”>Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine - Wikipedia)

Here’s the Vegan Starter Kit on their website:

[Free</a> Vegetarian Starter Kit | PCRM.org](<a href=“http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vsk/]Free”>http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vsk/)

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 9:26pm

No way. Not for me. That alone is 250 grams of carbohydrate, without even considering additional carbs from fruits and veggies. That is two and half times my carbohydrate consumption in a typical day. That would be a very unhealthy diet for me. I would get fat again.

I don’t think there is any one ideal diet. Everyone has different metabolisms. For example, some people (generally thin high metabolism folk) do very poorly on a low carb diet. On the other hand, somebody with signficant insulin resistance (metabolic syndrome) will typically do very well on a low carb diet.

In general, my recommendation would be:

a) adequate protein. Depending on your exercise level, that could be in the range of 1/2 gram to 1 gram of protein per day per pound of body weight (or target body weight).

b) Adequate fats focusing on the desireable high Omega 3 fats.

c) The level of carbohydrates that the invidual can tolerate without getting fat.

For me, it’s almost exclusively animal protein and fresh veggiess. Very little grain. Almost never eat starches like potatoes or rice. Most of my daily carbs come from veggies, some fruit, and complex starchy veggies like beans. Snacks are raw nuts and fresh fruit. My daily breakdown averages about:

1900 calories

50% fat
25% carbs
25% protein

I take four fish oil capsules and 6 grams of psyllium husk fiber each day. This diet works well for me. I’m quite certain I’ve signficantly reduced a wide range of of health risks. I’ve lost 90 pounds with this diet and my 60 second heart rate recovery after maximum exercise has increased from 15 bpm recovery to 28 to 30 bpm recovery – probably the best single predictor of a 50+ year old male keeling over dead in the next six years. I’m now solidly in the top 25% of my age group for heart rate recovery after exercise.

I probably don’t get quite enough protein for the level of exercise that I do. I average just over 100 grams per day or about .7 grams per pound of body weight. That’s certainly adequate, though.

Vegetarian?

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