Vegetarian?

BunsenBurner · July 7, 2011, 9:28pm

The Wiki article on macrobiotic diet confims what I-dad and I just said about its nutritional deficiencies.

woeishe · July 7, 2011, 9:29pm

^ That’s only in it’s strictest forms

BunsenBurner · July 7, 2011, 9:33pm

Backpedaling much? My point exactly: you will need to add protein and fat sources to the diet so it would provide adequate nutrition (and reduce the number of other stuff to keep the calorie count in check so your weight would not balloon), which would make it no diffrent from any oher form of vegetarian diet. :)

woeishe · July 7, 2011, 9:35pm

^ Which is why you add nuts and fish to a diet.

BunsenBurner · July 7, 2011, 9:41pm

Our point exactly. Then you cannot call it its fancy gibberish name. Case closed. :)

woeishe · July 7, 2011, 9:42pm

But the diet calls for consumption of fish and nuts…

BunsenBurner · July 7, 2011, 9:55pm

LOL, kiddo, that’s not what you stated earlier. In my almost 5 decades of walking this planet, i’ve seen my fairshare of dietary cults. I’m a food agnostic: I respect everyone’s dietary choices, but I do not like when people proselytize their food ideology as the one and only right choice. As I-dad said, there is no such thing as one diet that fits all; one has to “titrate” his/her body to figure out the optimal composition of nutrients and amount of food that sustains your body and mind in good working shape.

Back to our programming: helping our OP with dealing with her D’s dietary needs while feeding the rest of the family well.

coureur · July 7, 2011, 10:59pm

Okay, you want something a little more scholarly? Let’s look at the real medical lierature.

This is just a taste. I can keep going for a long time if these are not enough for you.

Nrdsb4 · July 7, 2011, 10:59pm

Take someone who is insulin resistant, tends toward diabetes, and give them a diet high in “healthy whole grains and carbohydrates,” and you’re going to send them straight to obesity and diabetes. Not everyone can tolerate a diet high in carbohydrates, whether or not they are high in whole grains, fruits, and other starches, or other foods which would be considered “junk.” It’s ridiculous how ignorant otherwise intelligent human beings are with regard to the fact that people are complex organisms and that genetics and individual factors play a huge part in how people respond to their diets. There is NO ONE perfect diet. It depends upon the person, their genes, and individual body chemistries/metabolisms/ability to process certain nutrients.

People seem to have NO problem assigning “genetics” or “metabolism” to people who can eat whatever they want in large quantities and yet be as sedentary as a slug, yet resist until their faces turn blue the idea that others can eat a basically “pristine” diet and exercise obsessively yet remain fat.

By the way, dietary cholesterol does NOT cause high serum cholesterol. Also, cholesterol is ESSENTIAL to life and plays a huge part in many essential body functions. People who have too low cholesterol are at risk for a whole host of problems. I was aghast when I learned this after being PRAISED for having a total cholesterol of 129. I should have been counseled immediately about the danger to my health-instead, I was applauded for my “healthy lifestyle.” Finally, when you review the cholesterol numbers of all patients with CAD, you find levels all over the board-high, low, moderate. PLEASE tell me why that indicates that everyone should aim to have low cholesterol in order to avoid heart disease. Perhaps it actually indicates that there are other factors which actually influence it (such as inflammation, which can be measured) rather than cholesterol.

We still have much to learn about the effects of diet on health. I really distrust anyone who touts their own diet as the only way and tries to use scare tactics based on unfounded assertions to malign the diets of other healthy individuals.

Cardinal_Fang · July 7, 2011, 11:11pm

Macrobiotic diets seem to eliminate a huge amount of foods. OK, no meat, no fish, no dairy, no eggs, we expected that, but you also can’t eat tomatoes, garlic, avocados, onions, potatoes or peppers. Or tea, or coffee. Seems like the rule is, if it tastes good, you can’t have it.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 11:25pm

Or, as Gary Taubes puts it: Denying genetics and other metabolism/hormone factors is as silly as thinking you can turn a bassett hound into a greyhound if you could just make run on a treadmill long enough.

interesteddad · July 7, 2011, 11:44pm

So Coureur, let’s look at one of those big bad meat/cancer scare studies. How 'bout this one:

[Meat</a>, fish, and colorectal cancer risk: the European Prospective Investigation into cancer and nutrition.](<a href=“Meat, fish, and colorectal cancer risk: the European Prospective Investigation into cancer and nutrition - PubMed”>Meat, fish, and colorectal cancer risk: the European Prospective Investigation into cancer and nutrition - PubMed)

They followed 478,000 men and women and saw 1328 cases of colo-rectal cancer withing 4.8 years in this population.

After all their statistical analysis, they found the following absolute risks of cancer

In addition, they found no effect on cancer risk correlated with poultry consumption.

So, I eat a lot of poultry, which is neither here nor there. I eat a lot of fish, which slightly reduces my low odds of colo-rectal cancer. And I eat a lot of red meat (if they are including pork), which slightly increases my low odds of colo-rectal cancer. So, all things considered, doubt it makes a bit of difference and certainly pales in comparison to the health benefits of losing 90 pounds on a diet that includes a lot of fish, poultry, and red meat.

And, here’s the problem with those studies in general. Is it the red meat? Or is it that people who eat a lot of red meat also eat a lot of Doritos and drink a lot of beer and those who think of themselves as “eating healthy” eat less meat and less Doritos? In other words: if you had a massive PR campaign informing the public that eating carrots was bad for their health, you would eventually find a correlation between not eating carrots and good health. Not because of anything to do with eating carrots, but because the most health conscious people would heed the message and stop eating carrots, just like they stopped eating Doritos and Krispy Kreme donuts.

Generally speaking, the two best things that a middle aged person can do are:

a) high intensity exercise

b) maintain lean muscle mass

So, whatever diet you choose needs to facilitate and fuel those two highly beneficial activities. Adequate protein is essential, regardless of how you chose to get your protein. It is certainly possible for vegetarians to get adequate protein, but many do not. it’s harder for vegans because their protein options are more limited.

mathmom · July 8, 2011, 12:23am

I consider my diet healthy, though some people probably think I eat too many eggs. I often eat more and differently on the weekend. Sushi for Sunday lunch is a tradition, the neighborhood has a lot of parties.

**
Breakfast**
1 egg with fruit or half a whole grain Eng muffin with jam (most days)
or
oatmeal with fruit
or (Saturdays) blueberry pancakes

Lunch
3 oz of meat or fish or 1/2 cup of beans or 1-2 oz of cheese (I’ve been moving toward mostly making this a vegetarian meal)
1 cup of sauted vegetables
(the above sometimes goes in a curry directions, sometimes Mediterranean saute, sometimes it’s just leftovers)
salad (not just lettuce)

Afternoon Snack
1/4 cup no fat plain Greek yogurt
1/4 cup granola
1/2 cup fruit

Dinner
3-4 ounces of meat or fish (more rarely beans)
1 cup cooked vegetables
1 cup salad (not just lettuce)

Evening Snack
a small chocolate, a granola bar, 1/2 a banana with a tsp. of peanut butter, or fruit

Over the course of the Day
1 cup of 1% milk in coffee

It’s about 1400 calories. About 40% fat, 25% protein and 35% carb. I take a multivitamin, fish oil and calcium most days. Can’t remember when I was sick last. Blood pressure is good, I should check my heart rate recovery some time. Livestrong thinks I eat too much protein, but I disagree.

coureur · July 8, 2011, 12:32am

I generally agree with that. What I disagree about is the notion that there is nothing unhealthy about eating meat. Look, I’ll be the last guy to become a vegetarian. I like meat way too much to ever give it up. But I’m not going to kid myself that eating meat doesn’t also have a downside.

You can cherry-pick your medical studies and quibble about the details, but the overwhelming consensus from hundreds of studies, conducted over many years and in many different countries, is that eating meat, especially red meat, significantly increases the risk of several kinds of cancer. There is a lot of both population as well as biochemical evidence supporting this idea. If you choose to accept those risks, good for you. I accept them to some degree too. But accepting them won’t make them go away. So instead I try to reduce the risks by limiting the amount of meat I eat to a few modest servings per week and often have days where I eat no meat at all (like today). If you choose to eat a diet loaded with meat, well, good luck to you.

bclintonk · July 8, 2011, 12:43am

I agree with interesteddad on the importance of exercise and body mass (“lean muscle mass”). But I’d question the assertion that “many” vegetarians don’t get adequate protein—especially ovo-lacto-vegetarians (the most common kind, I suspect) who generally have ample sources of protein in their diets. I just haven’t seen credible medical literature indicating that’s the case; it sounds more like an old wives’ tale propagated by meat-eaters. And I’d note again that, on average, vegetarians have a lower body-mass index, less obesity, less cardiovascular disease, lower rates of diabetes, and lower overall mortality rates than omnivores, though no doubt there are outliers in both camps (and interesteddad may be one on the omnivore side).

I would agree that getting adequate protein is more of a challenge for vegans, but having lived through several years of our D1 being a strict vegan, I would say even that challenge is not nearly so difficult as interesteddad imagines, if you just pay attention. Since she switched back to ovo-lacto, however, getting adequate protein is just not even close to being an issue; if we count the grams of protein she’s right on target, all day, every day, and she maintains the kind of vigorous exercise routine that should keep her healthy for many years to come. I dare say she eats a healthier diet and lives a healthier lifestyle than 95+% of her peers. Makes a father proud.

BunsenBurner · July 8, 2011, 12:56am

coureur, we can say that there is nothing unhealthy about ingesting sodium cyanide… of course, if one ingests only a fraction of a microgram of it and does not do it often. For everything, there is either moderation or an LD50 :). You’ve got to pick your poisons. My grandfather used to say, “The one who does not drink or smoke will die healthy”. Grandpa did neither, and outlived the average life expectancy at the time of his death by quite a few years. He lived with us and was our family’s chef. The main ingredients in his dishes were fried onions and “shkvarki”, or boiled chunks of salted bacon fat. [Ewww</a>… This is gross.](<a href=“http://www.featurepics.com/online/Fat-Sputtering-Frying-Pan-1620217.aspx]Ewww”>http://www.featurepics.com/online/Fat-Sputtering-Frying-Pan-1620217.aspx)

Even though i-dad defends meat eating, I do not think he is gorging himself to death on red meat. :)

bclintonk, that is the difference between egg eaters and vegans: egg eaters do not have to count grams of protein and add strange powders to their food to maintain their protein intake at healthy levels.

interesteddad · July 8, 2011, 1:39am

I typically have chicken breast or fish/seafood 4 nights a week and pork or beef three nights a week, but some of those might be homemade stew/chili with a a salad. I do eat large portions. Lunches rotate from soup with a ton of fresh veggies to my blue cheese salad to bacon/eggs to tuna fish or turkey sandwich. The bacon/eggs is probably the “healthiest” lunch in terms of low carb/high protein/low calorie, but I can’t eat it more than a couple times a week. I like to have it when I know I’m having something carb-y or low protein for dinner.

interesteddad · July 8, 2011, 1:43am

Most people, in general, do not get enough protein in their diets. I see nothing to suggest that vegetarians are any different.

anon94785555 · July 8, 2011, 3:43am

Someone mentioned eating organic foods- that distinction has nothing to do with foods being good/bad intrinsically- it merely refers to a lack of additives from pest control et al. Organic high cholesterol fats are still that.

Also- being a vegetarian is not equivalent to eating a better diet (the processed food example already was mentioned). There are plenty of fat vegetarian Indians (as well as thin ones) who eat a horrible diet- many sat fats and other calories. Don’t blame it on the dairy products alone. There is evidence for different ethnic groups (think genetic makeup) being able to tolerate different foods. There is an ongoing study of Indian immigrants with heart disease- this group may have higher rates of coronary artery disease than those of European ancestry with the same diet. High carb diets are not good for blood sugar control for many, either.

One size/diet doesn’t fit all.

Classof2015 · July 8, 2011, 7:31am

I think my next step for D is to see a nutritionist. D had asked if she could see one years ago – I should have done it then. I just thought that if I gave her healthy well balanced meals, she’s getting her nutrition, but I think she needs to be involved in the discussion.

I am not saying that being vegetarian is not sound nutritionally – I’m just worried that she is not getting enough “fuel” now that she’s running 8-10 miles a day.

She got into college because of her running and I don’t want her diet to hinder her ability to continue running. It’s a big part of who she is and I know she’s excited to be on the team. Also, she’s only 18. In a sense, she is still growing. I don’t want her to be missing vitamins or protein or calcium or iron, and I don’t know if she can build all those elements into her diet on her own.

Has anyone ever met with a nutritionist before? How do you find one? Are there “sports” nutritionists? Are they ever covered by insurance? How do you make sure you get someone who will give you objective advice?

Vegetarian?

CONNECT WITH US