Virginia parents get hard time for serving alcohol

Parent Cafe
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There was nothing cryptic in my response. I <em>was</em> referring to your statement, though not in any sort of judgmental way whatsoever. My point was simply that I <em>don’t</em> hold that expectation of parents in general, not because I do not WANT to be able to, but rather because I have observed the reality around me and have come to the conclusion that in THIS day and age, it is apparently an unreasonable expectation.</p>

<p>That said, I have allowed certain children of mine to travel to New York, Boston, Colorado, and within the state of Kansas with two different sets of parents. I would never have allowed that if those parents held very different standards than I did with regard to keeping kids safe. So, where there are a very few parents I trust fully with the safety and welfare of my kids, I do not expect that of parents in general for basically the same reason why dke seems to be having issues with some of the parents in her community–namely, vastly different standards.</p>

<p>By that same token, I’ve seen school officials and law enforcement officers in our community behave in ways that I do not respect. For example, our middle school resource officer was “relieved” this year for pulling a weapon on a middle school kid. Consequently, I don’t even trust THOSE people to keep my kids “safe.” So, you see, this is why I stress personal responsibility to an extreme in my family. In the end, that is really all we have, IMHO.</p>

<p>Please realize that I would never assert that either 1.) great kids do not screw up ever, or 2.) the “screw ups” of kids reflect bad/poor parenting in all cases. If you believe that I have said or implied this, then you have grossly misinterpreted my statements.</p>

<p>I would never be arrogant enough to say that I think there is only one way to skin a cat-OR raise children. I know some truly phenomenal parents who have extremely different parenting attitudes/philosophies than we do, and I know some completely amazing kids who have been raised by such parents. I also know some kids who have “screwed up” royally and whom I believe to be truly wonderful human beings. In fact, one of these kids is my closest adopted, who went through some very difficult years in middle school/beginning of high school and found himself in trouble on numerous occasions. I supported him through all of those times and continue to do so today, and he has thanked me profusely for being a constant in his life. </p>

<p>Complete agreement with me has never been a criterion for friendship for me.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p><a href=“Smelled%20pot%20at%20concerts,%20though…”>quote=ellemenope</a>

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I’ve had joints passed around me at parties, too…<em>rofl</em></p>

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<p>Man, I really don’t see why these parents got such harsh sentences.</p>

<p>If I had a kid, I’d rather him be drinking under my supervision than:</p>

<p>a-Be drinking in some sketchy part of town, then have to drive back home
b-Be at home alone and anti-social while all his friends were out having a good time drinking.</p>

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<p>Vyse, the problem with your analysis is that your (a) and (b), or providing your kid & other people’s kids with alcohol, are not the only choices. See, e.g, berurah’s posts throughout this thread. Educating your kids about alcohol, drugs, sex, and other risky behaviors doesn’t begin at 15. It starts much earlier than that. </p>

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<p>Get back to us when your kid is 14 or so.</p>

<p>(And while many argue that the parents should be punished, I haven’t noticed many which say that the sentence is reasonable.)</p>

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<p>Edit for Post 123 - I meant to say the only reason I can think of for accepting a no jail time “deal” not “verdict.”</p>

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:slight_smile: :smiley: :slight_smile: :smiley: :)</p>

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<p>Chedva- it is very hard to say why the judge sentenced them as he did. None of us were in the courtroom to see the demeanor or attitude of these parents. There have been so many tragedies in our area that could have been averted had these children simply not had easy access to alcohol. This past weekend, the Post ran a story on four young women, two of whom had just graduated from HS, who were killed in a car accident. Was alcohol involved? It hasn’t been determined yet, but there was alcohol found in the car. If alcohol is found to be a factor in the crash, who should be prosecuted and what should their sentence be? Alcohol is a real problem in our society and I think it’s time for everyone to pay attention.</p>

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<p>Well, I wouldn’t want my 14 year old kid drinking. But if they were say 18-20, I wouldn’t be terrified that they were consuming alcohol, just because the U.S. has the highest drinking age in the world. (Unless I had a girl, and she was drinking in the company of a bunch of drunk athletes/frat guys)</p>

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<p>The driver, and she’s already received a death sentence.</p>

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<p>Hanna, obviously the driver paid a heavy price if in fact she was drinking. From news reports, it’s my understanding that none of the girls were of legal drinking age- yet they were able to obtain alcohol somewhere from someone. Should that person be held accountable? I sure think so.</p>

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<p>What do you consider “accountable”? </p>

<p>If someone broke the law in providing alcohol to minors, they should receive whatever the usual punishment is in that jurisdiction, which is probably along the lines of 30 days in jail, a heavy fine, loss of the liquor license, or some combination thereof. The punishment is generally much harsher when there’s an element of knowing recklessness in the provision of alcohol – e.g., continuing to serve an obviously drunken person in a location that can only be reached by driving. I don’t have a problem with this system. I don’t think a liquor store owner who sold one bottle of rum ought to be put away for years because he was fooled by a fake ID and bunch of idiot unsupervised kids decided that they would get wasted and drive around.</p>

<p>If I had to pick a second person to blame besides the kids, it’d be the parents who provided the car, because it’s their job to know their kids and to realize that little Jenny has never shown good judgment before and isn’t going to start doing it the night she turns 16. Of course, it would be a huge waste of state resources to throw parents in jail for spoiling their kids, but if we’re talking moral blame, then a lot of it belongs to the parents.</p>

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<p>“Should that person be held accountable? I sure think so.”</p>

<p>About a mile from where I live, twins died in a car crash the day before they turned 21. One of the twins was driving. They had been out drinking that night via the help of a friendly bartender who knew they’d turn 21 the next day.</p>

<p>One of the twins was talking on the phone to their parents (who were driving up to celebrate the twins’ birthday) when the crash happened.</p>

<p>Horrific. This was even worse than the worst thing that most parents could imagine.</p>

<p>The bartender was sent to jail.</p>

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<p>I don’t think she did anything for her their kids safety. They deserve every second of that sentence. I do agree that they should have been givin the same sentence, but who knows what else happened to make her sentence longer.</p>

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It is <em>precisely</em> this “look to others to blame” mentality that has guaranteed that these horrific events will continue to occur. The blame should have been with:
1.) The essentially adult girls who chose to drink as much as they did (unless the bartender somehow restrained them and poured the alcohol down their throats), and
2.) the driver if she was talking on the cell phone while driving <em>and</em> impaired
3.) the parents for not making that message so crystal clear that it was properly ingrained.</p>

<p>A bartender cannot be reasonably expected to know the drinking limits of each and every customer that walks into the bar. For one person, half a glass of wine on an empty stomach might be enough to impair driving ability.</p>

<p>This problem will never be solved until we make it clear to our kids that THEY are the ones responsible for their behavior…and their health and welfare. Not some disinterested, oblivious, uninvested person around them.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>berurah, I would guess that the bartender went to jail for knowingly serving alcohol to underage drinkers - they were still 20 the day before their birthday. I’d guess as well that if it had been the following day, the bartender would be free. </p>

<p>If the twins had lived, I don’t doubt that they would have been held responsible for #1 and 2 in your listing. </p>

<p>I’m not so sure about #3, though. After a certain point, when parents can no longer be with them, kids may make bad choices, regardless of how “crystal clear” the messages the parents deliver over the years. If they weren’t there, they had no way of preventing what happened.</p>

<p>And about bartenders keeping tabs on their customers - I agree that questionable cases (like a glass of wine or a not clearly intoxicated patron) should not be prosecuted. But there are other cases, such as the apparently now-customary “21 shots” that might not be questionable: if the twins were in that bar and did the shots there, I’d argue that anyone but a boob would know they were impaired. (Of course, there’ no way of knowing any of this from the brief facts given - I’m just speaking generally.)</p>

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<p>Chedva~</p>

<p>I am actually in agreement with you on this. It does frustrate me, though, that many people want to look EVERYWHERE EXCEPT to those who have any degree of choice in these matters. As I said in several posts on this thread, if you are looking to (or G-d forbid EXPECTING) a DISinterested party to take into account the welfare of your child, you may end up bitterly disappointed. </p>

<p>The biggest lesson I take from this is simply that it doesn’t MATTER whose fault this is. TWO precious kids are gone forever. That is the tragedy here and one of the highest order. These particular two kids, though, at one day away from 21, were VERY well aware that they were doing something illegal. Would the deaths have been any less needless or less tragic the following day? Then, their behavior would have been LEGAL…but so what?</p>

<p>I’ve actually searched and read two articles on this, and apparently the issue was less with the bartender and more with the servers. One of the servers was a friend of the kids who knew they were underage for one more day. In a restaurant situation, the bartender may not actually get to see the patron as the server is the go-between and THAT person is supposed to card the patrons. From what I could find, the twins went to two different restaurants to drink, and both restaurants settled with the family.</p>

<p>In another sad detail, the girl twin was not wearing a seatbelt and was apparently ejected from the car via the windshield, although I believe the car ended up catching fire anyway. </p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>I guess I’m confused as to the point you are trying to make, berurah. I don’t think anyone here advocates placing undue reliance on others with regard to the safety of their kids, nor do I see anyone seeking to hold underage drinkers blameless. All agree it is best to educate kids to the dangers and consequences of this behavior so, ideally, good decisions are made.</p>

<p>What I do see here is strong support for punishing not just kids who violate underage drinking laws, but adults who cross the line as well…and a practical recognition that it sometimes has to come to that.</p>

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<p>I feel like berurah’s making a more general point about the unwillingness of people to accept responsibility for their own actions that have tragic consequences. Yes, the twins were drunk because the bartender served them. It’s still their fault for drinking, their fault for driving, and the one’s fault for talking on the cell phone. The only thing that the bartender could be faulted for would be serving them underage - and frankly, I would give him a slap on the wrist for that.</p>

<p>I truly hate it when the results of crimes are considered in sentencing crimes. “But the fact that he served alcohol to them had tragic consequences!” Yes, and? Does that actually make his actions worse than the other 100000 people who have knowingly served underage kids before? I think not. I put victim impact statements in the same kind of boat.</p>

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<p>The results of the crime always are considered, and usually considered as part of the charge. Attempted murder is punished less severely than murder, although the intent of the actor and his actions may be identical and it’s just that his victim got lucky. Driving under the influence carries a lesser penalty than vehicular homicide, even though the driver committed the same actions but was lucky enough not to meet up with another vehicle or pedestrian. Larceny under $100 is a misdemeanor; grand theft is a felony.</p>

<p>Things are always different in degree.</p>

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<p>Was it a BMW commercial whose basic premise is that the best way to survive an accident is NOT to be in an accident? </p>

<p>Yes, I would hope that adults wouldn’t serve my kids alcohol at 7th grade graduation parties. Yes, I would hope that bartenders wouldn’t serve drinks to underage patrons. Yes, I would hope that liquor stores wouldn’t sell liquor to minors.</p>

<p>But the only sure way to insure that your kids aren’t involved in an accident caused by their own underage drinking is to make sure that they don’t drink when they are underage.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, you can’t lock them in a cage until they are 21. YOu have to teach them and train them and let them know of your expectations. But in the end, it is their own choice…as a parent, you hold your breath, after all that you do.</p>