<p>Well if your test scores are bleow 1280, you can now get into Wake. Now that is something to consider when US News Ranks you and your academic Standards!</p>
<p>I hope your consistant with your mission. Your rule of thumb should apply across the board at Wake. The kid who swaps rides for homework and has bogust A’s in Chemistry should get into Wakes Medical School based on his GPA, because; clearly proficiency test scores should be optional here too. Unless, of course you have a double standard, or you are a hypocrite.</p>
<p>If Wake Forest raised their test score standards, then they would have more foreign students (like Emory, Standord, and Georgetown which are all over 25% diverse and ranked amongst the the top 25 Universities.) Foreign students who can finance their way into prestigious Universities do not want to come to Wake Forest, because; your test score average is already too low… If they cannot afford the more expensive schools, they go to good State Schools, because your tuition is too high!! </p>
<p>Maybe Hatch has something to do with the fact that the school is loosing 5 %of the freshman class under his watch. So, screw it up a little more Mr. Hatch. If you can’t cut it as a prestigious University, than Dumb it down, and to hell with the current student body, and the alumni - those bragging rights that you worked hard for and paid alot for are GONE!!! </p>
<p>It appears that your real mission is to be more like the lower ranking schools which have higher retention rates. I quess it would be hard to admit that to the existing student body without lowering moral even more than you already have. So work hard to get them to drink the Kool Aid for the next 3 years until the last remaing class of over achievers graduates.</p>
<p>Maybe the retention rate of last years freshman class was low, because; your enrollment staff accepted too many under achievers, too many insecure students unable to find their own nitch, and too many students with low SAT Scores. Instead of throwing out the high standards of the University, you should have fired your enrollment staff!!!</p>
<p>Now you should fire Mr. Hatch too, so we can get on with restoring the reputation and status of Wake!</p>
<p>Lowering standards is always the easy way out! Your student body should be ashamed!!!</p>
<p>I beg to differ with many posters in this thread. </p>
<p>I applaud Wake Forest. In my estimation, I believe it is unfair to use Standardized Test Scores as a means for admission anyway simply because every high school is different, every state is different, every city is different, and every school system is different. Every curriculum teaches students different things, what one school in Illinois may be teaching their students junior year could be the same thing students in California learned there freshman year. The fact that they eliminated their Standardized Test policy allows for a more holistic review of the applicant. It allows for them to dig beyond the numbers and attempt to paint a picture of the applicant’s capabilities based on three YEARS of doing well, not four HOURS of a test. </p>
<p>I also disagree with some saying the best applicants get the tutors and all the test material for the standardized test. Everyone can’t afford private tutors and expensive test materials and so fourth. So that statement is false. </p>
<p>They are definitely not lowering their standards. If anything it raises the bar because student who have an excellent academic history, however, aren’t good test takers, have a greater chance to be admitted.</p>
<p>If every high school is different, then why use GPA scores either? That is why using them together makes sense, Check and Balance. Of course, exceptions should be made for students on an individual basis, because; of mitigating circumstances, such as improvished school districts. And in todays public school programs, almost every - if not every - city has a magnet school with curriculum higher than most public schools in outlying affluent neighborhoods. In fact, I can name one such school which sends more students to Ivy League Universities than any other public or private school in the county. </p>
<p>Does Northwestern have the courage to follow in Wake Forests footsteps? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Grade Point Average Scores differentiate from the ACT greatly, therefore I believe it is unrealistic to dismiss them. First off, GPA is cumulated from Freshman to Senior Year. No matter what your GPA is, it is only as competitive as the school’s curriculum. Meaning your GPA is not competing with a student from Florida. GPA is based on the level of the school’s academics, ACT is based on the nation. Which means everyone in the United States takes the same ACT test, however, everyone in the United States doesn’t have the same school curriculum. </p>
<p>The Reason Northwestern wouldn’t eliminated there test policy is because they have enough minority students. 32.3% to be exact. </p>
<p>The only reason they eliminated the policy was because they want more minority students, and minorities usually get the lowest scores on the ACT & SAT, and Wake forest only has 15% of minorities.</p>
<p>It is obvious why you go to Northwestern, you can reason. If Northwestern did not have to drop Score requirements to become so highly diversified, why does Wake Forest.</p>
<p>Diversification is not their real goal. Dumbing down the school, and becoming just another O.K. mid ranked University is Hatch’s goal. He would not outwardly admit it, because; the last 3 remaining classes of very high calibar students would revolt. Hatch knows that lower standards means less stress on the staff, the President, the enrollment officiers and the incoming freshman class. That means an easier job for him.</p>
<p>And what you said about GPA’s is right on.</p>
<p>The current student body at Wake deserves better than a looser like Hatch…</p>
<p>He should have left with the 5% of this years freshman class who could not cut it.</p>
<p>even though Wake Forest is a nice school, no one really thinks it as another Duke or another Vanderbilt and so on. Even though it’s a top college, it does not have any specialized program which means it’s reputation is solely based on liberal arts and other non-academic factors. I’d love to go to Wake Forest because this is the school what I like but it’s just my case. Say that there’s a student who wants to be a doctor. Wake Forest is not the best place for him. Duke, Johns Hopkins, Harvard and even Case Western Reserve have better medical/pre-med programs. He would choose those schools instead of Wake if he can choose. Another student wants to major in international relationship, then he would choose Tufts, Harvard, or Georgetown over Wake Forest. What about liberal arts, one thing that Wake Forest should be proud of? Amherst, Williams, Carleton, Bowdoin…tons and tons of small and excellent liberal arts schools would be the first thing you should look at. In my opinion, this is one problem Wake Forest has, as a TOP 30 college, and I think this is what administrations and President Hatch should work on right now. It is a good school for me, a student who does not know what to do, but without a doubt I can say, a student who set a clear goal will do better in college than a student like me.</p>
<p>Hatch is just using the minority card as a smoke screen… Come on, we all know that High Ranking Universities look at applications on an individual basis and they make exceptions for both low GPA scores and low SAT scores where mitigating circumstances warrent.</p>
<p>Harvard has a 35% minority student body</p>
<p>Northwestern has a 33% minority student population</p>
<p>Duke has a 39% minority student population</p>
<p>Emory has a 33% minority student population</p>
<p>Princeton has a 32% minority student population</p>
<p>Stanford has a 48% minority population</p>
<p>It is nonsense to suggest that schools that require SAT test scores are not able to diversify. They all rean well above Wake Forest and have done a fine job of it.</p>
<p>The truth is Hatch wants to diversify the academic standards so as to become a more average University catering to students who are not such high achievers. This puts less pressure on him, his staff and incoming students to perform. The lower the standards, the lower the curriculum, the lower the stress on freshmans who could not otherwise make the cut and would option to transfer.</p>
<p>This is his real agenda. It is simply a slap in the face to the over achieving students who are stuck there for 3 more years.</p>
<p>Too bad Wake did not have a smarter and stronger president, who understood the overflow of students with high SAT and GPA’s scores. Had he raised Wake Forest’s admission standards, he would have attracted more diverse students who could handle the honor, the pressures, and the social life at what was once a prestigious School!</p>
<p>Alice Ann - you are a BEAST! And I mean that in a nice way.</p>
<p>Those who want to get rid of the SAT or ACT or subject tests or AP tests or Medical Boards or PE exam are . . . absolute idiots. In the end we really need those flying the airplane to know what they are doing.</p>
<p>You appear to have a lot of animosity towards the President don’t you Alice Ann…lol. I couldn’t tell you why Wake doesn’t attract minorities, IDK. But who knows…and I don’t think it’s a slap in the face to over achieveing students. If anything, it gives the star student, whose not a good test taker an opportunity to apply with a real chance of being admitted. And Mammall, I am not an idiot…because I think it’s a good start if they’re really attempting to attract more miniorities.</p>
<p>If a star student is not a good test taker, than how did they become a star student? Did they go to a school that did not give tests? And how would they ever make it at Northwestern, or Wake Forest if they are not good test takers? Or am I missing something? Does Northwestern have different classroom tests for bad test takers. </p>
<p>That is exactly why bad test takers should go to small hand holding “colleges” where they can get the special attention they deserve.</p>
<p>Your arguement is pretty stupid, and I am begining to wonder if you really go to Northwestern. If you do, you must be eating too much granola and smoking too much pot.</p>
<p>When someone new comes to lead your school by reducing the academic standards to GPA’s and joins the allaince of the bottom 100 ranked Universities, than you can talk</p>
<p>First and foremost, this was a pretty good argument, until I’m beginning to realize how naive you are because if you know anything you’d realized that I my name is Northwestern2012, indicating that If I DID go to Northwestern I would be graduating from in 2012…indicating that I am a SENIOR in high school. </p>
<p>Becoming a star student includes MORE than test scores. It also includes, homework, class work, projects, and in some cases even attendance. NO test in school can amount to the stress of the ACT or SAT so I think comparing in school test to the ACT/SAT really proves your intelligence level. And not so good test takers CAN make it at Northwestern or Wake Forest by studying the material they are given in class, compared to four hours of material that is scatted from freshman to junior year with the ACT/SAT. </p>
<p>I also think it is deplorable to suggest that bad test takers should go to small holding “colleges” as that is an insult to bad test takers and I believe that just because you don’t do so well on ONE test doesn’t by any means predicts a person’s success in college.</p>
<p>AA, I am exhausted reading all your threads (have you ever thought of proofreading what you write?) WHY all the anger towards Hatch? You come across as angry and resentful, and it takes away from your argument!</p>
<p>In response to you guys who think the SAT is unfair, discriminates, and is socioeconomically biased, why aren’t high school grades the same? I mean, who can expect your average high school teacher to come up with so many tests during a school year that aren’t biased in the same way? They don’t have years of research or a panel of experts to analyze them all. On this line of thinking, high school grades shouldn’t be given at all either. So let’s do away with grades, testing, gpa’s, etc., because we surely don’t want to discriminate in some way. Then if there’s no college entrance requirement that can be measured in any fair, unbiased way, why have grades in college either or a standard to be met to graduate? Then 10 years down the road, when you’re laying on the operating table, and you see that your doctor graduated from one of those “progressive” schools, you won’t have any idea if he learned anything about medicine, but you can be sure he did lots of “group work”, is very tolerant, had lots of experience with all types of diversity, spent a fortune in tuition, and hopefully had a really great time.
(Sorry, I couldn’t resist the sarcasm.)</p>
<p>AA is absolutly right! Anger with a little common sense goes a long way. Look, there needs to be a check and balance to the admissions process. How would you like to be John who went to XYZ high school had a 3.6 GPA and 1400 SAT with a tough coarse load? Tamisha, however from ABC high school had a 3.9 GPA and 1200 SAT which of coarse she didn’t submit and she took all easy classes. IN THIS SCENARIO TAMISHA GETS IN! AWESOME!!! Trust me there will be many scenarios like this in the future.</p>
<p>^^You’ve just summarized my point. Eliminating the test makes the admission people review the applicant more intensely. It would make then break down the type of classes they’ve taken the review of the applican’ts record would be more in depth and intense. The admission people know who took the easy and tough course load. When they evaluate the transcripts, they make note of APs, and Honors. Most applications ask how many you’ve taken, so I think they would be able to differentiate from tough and easy course loads. </p>
<p>I’ve always had the thought for top colleges, if you didn’t have a certain ACT/SAT score, they’d throw your application to the rejected pile.</p>