<p>Fascinating thread. </p>
<p>There’d be no argument if suicide bombers were targeting our kids at shopping malls…or dorm parties with ball-bearing loaded explosive vests and rockets as in Israel. </p>
<p>Waterboarding would then be viewed as an intermural diversion.</p>
<p>G-d willing, this will always be nothing more than a cyberspace discussion.</p>
<p><a href=“http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm[/url]”>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm</a></p>
<p>Iraq torture ‘worse after Saddam’ </p>
<p>Allegations of severe torture have regularly emerged from Iraq</p>
<p>Torture may be worse now in Iraq than under former leader Saddam Hussein, the UN’s chief anti-torture expert says. </p>
<p>Manfred Nowak said the situation in Iraq was “out of control”, with abuses being committed by security forces, militia groups and anti-US insurgents. </p>
<p>Bodies found in the Baghdad morgue “often bear signs of severe torture”, said the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq in a report. </p>
<p>The wounds confirmed reports given by refugees from Iraq, Mr Nowak said. </p>
<p>He told journalists at a briefing in Geneva that he had yet to visit Iraq, but he was able to base his information on autopsies and interviews with Iraqis in neighbouring Jordan. </p>
<p>“What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand,” the Austrian law professor said. </p>
<p>“The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein,” he added. </p>
<p>Brutal methods </p>
<p>The UN report says detainees’ bodies often show signs of beating using electrical cables, wounds in heads and genitals, broken legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns. </p>
<p>Bodies found at the Baghdad mortuary “often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances”. </p>
<p>Many bodies have missing skin, broken bones, back, hands and legs, missing eyes, missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails, the UN report says. </p>
<p>Victims come from prisons run by US-led multinational forces as well as by the ministries of interior and defence and private militias, the report said. </p>
<p>The most brutal torture methods were employed by private militias, Mr Nowak told journalists. </p>
<p>The report also says the frequency of sectarian bloodletting means bodies are often found which “bear signs indicating that the victims have been brutally tortured before their extra-judicial execution”. </p>
<p>It concludes that torture threatens “the very fabric of the country” as victims exact their own revenge and fuel further violence. </p>
<p>Mr Nowak said he would like to visit Iraq in person, but the current situation would not allow him to prepare an accurate report, because it would not be safe to leave Baghdad’s heavily guarded Green Zone where the Iraqi government and US leadership are situated.</p>
<p>I just read that, too, cgm. I’m so happy to see that we have made life so much better for the Iraqi people. My prayers go out for them.</p>
<p>Yes, life is hard for some people in Iraq … and for some people in Iran, Bosnia, Sudan, Rwanda, the Ivory Coast, rural China, and other nations. I am not sure if I trust the UN’s evaluation of how widespread torture is in Iraq (then vs. now) given how inept the UN has shown itself to be in conducting inspections and providing worldwide humanitarian aid. Nevertheless, I understand there is sectarian violence and torture in Iraq. The majority is almost certainly Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence or acts committed by terrorists against Iraqi citizens. </p>
<p>Regrettably, however, Iraqis do not have the choice between living with violence and torture or living without violence and torture. Instead, their choices were/are to live for decades with violence under Saddam Hussein and his sons or to endure violence now in a free country. Given that reality, I believe that most people (other than the rulers themselves) would prefer to live in a free country than in a dictatorship. There is hope that violence and torture will end at some point now that Iraq is a free nation. There was little hope that violence and torture would end while Saddam Hussein was in power.</p>
<p>its torture on OUR watch in OUR centers…gosh, do we ever have any responsibility as a nation for this mess, or do we keep excusing ineptness over and over…</p>
<p>CGM,</p>
<p>How powerful do you think America is? America may be a superpower but that doesn’t make it Superman. Neither America nor any nation in history has been so powerful that it could prevent all bad things from happening anytime or any place. In Iraq, we are doing the best we can in a difficult situation. </p>
<p>Once again, the choice was between life under a dictator who gassed, killed, tortured, raped, and maimed his own people or life in a country suffering under violent war/terrorism yet struggling to become a free nation. I understand you deplore violence and torture but avoiding them is not an option for the Iraqi people. Their choice is between subjugation and freedom.</p>
<p>But I was told Iraq would be easy, weren’t you? And this is our watch, our people, and freedom? more deaths and violence every day…our leaders have done a deplorable job with Iraqi’s “freedom”</p>
<p>Rampant corruption, projects not getting done, our soldiers not getting taken care of, private “contractors” making billions with no oversite</p>
<p>If we took care of business- electricty, water, schools, and treated the residents we want to give freedom to with respect- not destroying families and lives - maybe we wouldn;t have such a mess</p>
<p>But when you have a President and his staff IGNORE military suggestions and say that no long term plan is needed, disregard complaints about corruption and war profiteering, basically sending in private military who answer to no-one, who’s own FBI refuse to participate in “interrogations” because they go too far, when you have an administration that puts people in postitions of leadership and organization in Iraq that have no experience in the job they were hired to do, just loyalty to Bush, when you have soliders that have been there forever and see little progress</p>
<p>Yes, many of the problems are our fault- our leaders have failed the Iraqi people in the move forward-</p>
<p>Saddam was brutal, but I expect MORE from our own administration, and one thing I expect is to have the BEST people over there rebuilding a country, not just loyal Republicans who voted for Bush, and I expect my leaders to listen to the people actually doing the work, and I expect my administration to set the standard for humanitarian treatment to the world, and I expect accountability, something DRJ4 doesn’t think this administration should have…</p>
<p>CGM Posted: “But I was told Iraq would be easy, weren’t you?”</p>
<p>Will you please provide some documentation for that?</p>
<p>Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, spoke optimistically in interviews and at briefings about the prospects that the war would be short, Iraqi resistance limited and Iraqi citizens welcoming.</p>
<p>Myers who spoke with reporters about “a short, short conflict” against an Iraqi force that was “much weaker” than it was in the 1991 Gulf War.</p>
<p>Influential outside advisers who urged the administration to target Saddam went even further. Kenneth Adelman, a Reagan administration official who serves on a Pentagon advisory board, said in a Washington Post column in February that the war would be “a cakewalk.” Richard Perle, who chaired that board until last week, predicted in July that support for Saddam, even within the Iraqi military, would “collapse after the first whiff of gunpowder.”</p>
<p>Pre-war quotes:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Feb. 7, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”</p></li>
<li><p>March 4, Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at a breakfast with reporters: “What you’d like to do is have it be a short, short conflict. . . . Iraq is much weaker than they were back in the '90s,” when its forces were routed from Kuwait.</p></li>
<li><p>March 11, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, in a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars: “The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator.”</p></li>
<li><p>March 16, Vice President Cheney, on NBC’s Meet the Press: “I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months.” He predicted that regular Iraqi soldiers would not “put up such a struggle” and that even “significant elements of the Republican Guard . . . are likely to step aside.”</p></li>
</ul>
<p><a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/educate/war28-article.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/educate/war28-article.htm</a></p>
<p>Ok, I’ll give it to you Allmusic (and CGM). Unfortunate statements, all.</p>
<p>On September 20, 2001, President Bush warned us that fighting the war on terror will be a long, difficult task:
</a>
I agree that the Bush Administration and the military painted a rosier picture in Iraq than it turned out to be. By October 2003, however, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld stated that Iraq would be a “long hard slog”. In candor, did you fault President Clinton for failing to foresee that Somalia would be a disaster? Or that progress in Bosnia would be so difficult? </p>
<p>EDIT: War has many surprises for both the victor and the vanquished. We do the best we can.</p>
<p>DRJ, I think Bush was honest that the “War on Terror” would be a long one, but the administration really did expect the Iraq part of it to be a bit of a cakewalk. They really had no idea what was inside that Pandora’s Box.</p>
<p>Allmusic,</p>
<p>Well said. This is my day to acknowledge the “power” of your comments!</p>
<p>
“OUR centers”??? Please CGM, I know that you love to tear down this country or at least its Republican administration at any given opportunity, but this is a reach for even you. Perhaps you could find support for your theory that this is being done in OUR centers? </p>
<p>But, it’s good to see that you agree with the President that we have a responsibility to stay and try to put an end to this violence. I assume that that is your position based on your post? Correct?</p>
<p>to do it WELL, so many excuses…ineptness, corruption, war profiteering, hiring people that can’t do the job, private army and contractors</p>
<p>its a mess that WE created</p>
<p>They were OUR centers, our people were in charge, our people had control…so its nice that poeple like FF think all is honky dorry, that no one should ever be held accountable for anything in this administration and that somehow asking, why is the mess getting WORSE not better…why was there no plan, why why why</p>
<p>but hey, if this is all you expect from your leaders, well, the Iraqis are paying the price…so much money and so little to show, and all we can come up with is digging a trench? what, a giant moat is the best we got?</p>
<p>guess my expectations from the greatest country in the world are higher than some peoples’…some people will settle for excuse after excuse, wasted money, and little to show…me, I demand more</p>
<p>Guess that is the difference you will settle for poor results, I want good results…and not the “well, they are free!!!” is that the best we can do?</p>
<p>If our leaders had a clue, three years later, it should be getting better, not worse day after day after day</p>
<p>“They were OUR centers, our people were in charge, our people had control”</p>
<p>Once again, I repeat, please provide a credible source for this allegation. Your willingness to believe the worst about our soldiers and country is incredible.</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom,</p>
<p>Our military actions in Somalia - under President Clinton’s watch - were a disaster. Like your judgment of President Bush, I could say that Clinton didn’t “have a clue.” I do blame President Clinton for pulling out of Somalia when things got tough. However, I don’t blame him for what happened in Somalia even though we know he disregarded advice from the military and defense department regarding how many troops to send and other decisions. In essence, Clinton probably didn’t “have a clue” what he was doing in Somalia but I bet he learned and used what he learned to make better decisions in Bosnia. Maybe that’s also why Clinton did not jump on the “Bush was wrong” bandwagon early in the Iraq war.</p>
<p>I’ve been wanting to say this for a bit and see what floats up. The war on terror will last as long as “we” want it to. </p>
<p>Some solutions used in the past to end “WARs” </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Have a draft. A million men stationed in Iraq and Afganistan would certainly curtail the tough talk and support for terrorists in the neighbor states. Would Iran talk so tough if they knew we weren’t stretched so thin? Would Pakistan be so “unable” to find Bin Laden? These countries would quickly figure out harboring terrorists, isn’t good for their government. Maybe even our Saudi “friends” would stop subsidizing terrorism as well. </p></li>
<li><p>taxes. Why are we borrowing to finance the war? Why not use the estate tax to subsidize the war? That way the truly wealthy could support the cause.</p></li>
<li><p>rationing. What are we being asked to give up to help with the cause? </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Hey I’m not necessarily the peace-nik some of you imply. However, if your gonna tell us every day what danger we are in, and then do nothing about it by crushing the opposition completely, your just playing with soldiers lives and I don’t support that. Our troops deserve more than WW1 french aristocratic leadership. </p>
<p>Instead of tax cuts, ask for money to ensure our troops are well armed and have the equipment they need. </p>
<p>What still bothers me, if the “right” supports these actions, why not go all the way and do it right. Why tolerate less from this administration? </p>
<p>Please don’t blame the previous one, didn’t you ever tell your kids “if so and so jumped off the bridge, whould you”? That’s just saying they are the same, this one should have been better. </p>
<p>What I see is an administration that looked back and saw what happens to a President who wins a quick victory. The American public then focus turns to something else, like the economy. GB sr. would have won a second term had Iraq lasted longer the first time. This group has given us a “painless” war on terror, unless of course, your children are in the services.</p>
<p>
To be free isn’t enough for you? It seems like a lot to me, especially since no other nation apparently could or would help Iraq get it. Nevertheless, I guess freedom isn’t enough for me, either. That’s why I want America to stay in Iraq and help rebuild. Everyday, all across Iraq, Americans are helping Iraqis obtain clean water, electricity, better food, health care and immunizations, and other basic necessities. Many are getting these things for the first time in their lives. I think what you want is perfection and that’s too much to ask.</p>
<p>Opie,</p>
<p>What you describe are ways to make America quit fighting but that doesn’t mean the terrorists will quit. The war on terror will last as long as the terrorists want it to and not a day longer.</p>