"We are all Georgians"

Parent Cafe
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<p>Am I the only person who got a distinctly queasy feeling watching John McCain emit this unctuous bit of attempted pandering? Aside from the fact that it came across as staged and phony, are Americans really so gullible that this kind of appeal to a cartoonishly simplistic “good guy-bad guy” theme in a complicated situation thousands of miles away that most Americans were completely unaware of a week ago will actually have traction? </p>

<p>I have no idea about who are the real bad guys in this one (seems likely that there are pretty good candidates on both sides, and a muddled set of criteria for who is “right” and who is “wrong”) but it looks like McCain (advised by a recent Georgia lobbyist) has decided to opt for the “Ready, Fire, Aim” school of diplomacy. This is supposed to be how he shows us he’s ready for that 3 AM phone call? Has anyone tipped him off to the fact that our troops are already pretty busy in Iraq and Afghanistan, so there’s not really a lot we can do to follow through for our Georgian “brethren?” </p>

<p>Fortunately, the French appear to be ready to step in and take care of the problem, since we’re in no position to do so. “Want some freedom fries with that, Sir?”</p>

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<p>Eh? The US has a standing garrison of 1.1 million. We’re not likely to face a land invasion of our home soil anytime soon. The big issue is money.</p>

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<p>I am acquainted with the president of Georgia, so I have great sympathy and solidarity for him and the Georgian people. I also find Putin a truly terrifying figure, so I’m ok with seeing him as the bad guy. Reading the conditions of “agreement” was quite startling as there was no compromise there. The presence of Sarkozy is attributable to the fact that Putin controls the natural gas to Western Europe. I’m sure Sarkozy would willingly have given away just about everything to make nice with Putin. Not good. Not good at all.</p>

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<p>Saakashvili is hardly better than Putin. Look at what he did in November 2007. 15 day state of emergency, banned the opposition from protesting, sent troops and riot police in to squash everyone who opposed him. Even Putin has never had to declare a state of emergency–because the vast majority supports him (he has approval ratings that Bush or Congress could only dream of).</p>

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<p>Does McCain have any nuances when it comes to foreign policy besides which weapons to use?</p>

<p>The U.S. has no moral authority to lecture ANYONE about foreign policy while it maintains a hostile, aggressive occupation force in a sovereign nation, placed there through a systematic campaign of lying and international deceit.</p>

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<p>As far as I am concerned, you are right on Zoosermom. Natural gas supplies to parts of Europe were held in a strangle hold last winter for a while. We have had big protests here at the Russian embassy. People who have been under their dominance don’t like them anymore than they like US dominance.</p>

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<p>Well, I dusted off my globe, and guess what it told me? Georgia is right next door to Iran… Hmmmm… Someone recently got caught singing “Bomb Iran”…</p>

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<p>This is a worth while editorial from the IHT. </p>

<p>[The</a> grim realities of power - International Herald Tribune](<a href=“http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/opinion/edmenon.php]The”>http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/opinion/edmenon.php)</p>

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<p><em>cough</em> This whole situation is Georgia’s fault. <em>cough</em></p>

<p>Seriously though, talk about a HUGE miscalculation.</p>

<p>Anyway, I think the reason why we have little clout in this matter is because we invaded Iraq.</p>

<p>If you think about it, we had less of a reason to invade Iraq than the Russians did to invade Georgia. Unlike the Georgians, the Iraqis never actually attacked us–nor is it clear they would or could.</p>

<p>That said, the Russians clearly wanted this to happen and were preparing for the day it did. But even still, that is better than what we did in Iraq. At least the Russians can say they are responding to an attack as a opposed to preempting one.</p>

<p>P.S.</p>

<p>In case you didn’t know, McCain is receiving most of his advice on the Georgia-Russia conflict from a foreign policy adviser who is/was a lobbyist for the Georgian government. Psshh… and HE’S calling Obama naive on foreign policy?</p>

<p>[While</a> Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html]While”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html)</p>

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<p>John McCain is against using our money for pork projects… when the pork projects benefit Americans.</p>

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<p>Newjack,
in all honesty, Georgia never attacked Russia. South Osetia was a part of Georgia before it broke away in the early 90s(as did Abkhasia). The situation is complicated and it seems that nobody is exactly a good guy. I have an opportunity to follow not only US and European, but also Russian-language media(on both sides of the conflict) and all sorts of unpleasant things were done by both parties.</p>

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<p>parabella:</p>

<p>There are Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, so when the Georgians started shelling the place they were shelling Russians. The shelling actually killed and wounded quite a few of the Russian peacekeepers too. (Reuters said the shelling killed 10 and wounded about 30–it’s probably more than that too since the article with this information is dated August 8th.)</p>

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<p>And Georgia says that instead of keeping the peace Russians were encouraging the militant separatists and enabling them to regularly shell Georgian villages across the border. And so on, and so forth. There should have been real peace-keeping force there(not Russian, not Georgian, neutral).</p>

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<p>James Traub had some good comments on Fresh Air [James</a> Traub On The Russia-Georgia Conflict : NPR](<a href=“http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93561996]James”>James Traub On The Russia-Georgia Conflict : NPR)</p>

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<p>The World has set a very dangerous precedent with Kosovo. It has given powerful countries like China, Russia, the US and others the carte blanche to breach other nations’ sovereignties with little or no ramification. This is just the first incident. Wait for others to emerge.</p>

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<p>Our future as a planet is all about nations willing to forge ahead with international dialogue and cooperation as opposed to domination. Nothing new there. It was the spirit emerging from the ashes of WWII that set up the UN. We just need to work harder. These are early days.</p>

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<p>“Our future as a planet is all about nations willing to forge ahead with international dialogue and cooperation as opposed to domination.”</p>

<p>Bush, Putin and several other leaders must have missed the memo! hehe!</p>

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<p>Thank you very much, John McCain, but I am not a Georgian; nor do I care to be.</p>

<p>Saakashvili decided to poke the Russian bear with a stick, and the bear swiped back. Why he did this seems unclear, but maybe he was remembering Kosovo and assumed the West might party like it was 1999.</p>

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This is true. H and I have been watching Russia closely (which apparently is more than the Bush administration has done, preferring instead to play in the Middle East sandbox), from the perspective of Americans who have visited Russia. We were there during Putin’s second term, and there was anxiety among the people about who (or what) was going to take over after his term expired. Putin kept the country together after the Soviet collapse; things got better for ordinary citizens; he gave them back their religion; he rallied nationalistic pride. Well, Putin solved that problem: Presto! Prime Minister. Americans see this as an authoritarian power grab. Russians see it as security, a strong hand at the helm.</p>

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Apparently not. No matter. He’s just parroting the current administration’s lines. Is he just saber-rattling, like Bush is doing with NATO (assuming Bush IS just saber-rattling and not trying to force something for his legacy, which is in tatters), or does he just have the foreign policy sophistication of a 12 year old? Arms good. Talks bad. In any event, McCain’s starting to really scare me.</p>

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No, Georgia just attacked Russians, which the majority of citizens in the two “breakaway republics” are. The Soviets, knowing how much trouble ethnic minorities can be, administered the territories as autonomous units within Georgia–except for Abkhazia which Stalin, a native Georgian, arbitrarily included within Georgia (laying the groundwork for the conflict today). The Abkhaz and South Ossetians are bona fide citizens of the Russian Federation and happy to accept Russian protection in their quest to be rid of Georgians once and for all. If a foreign entity starts bombing settlements full of Russian citizens, should it be a surprise that Russia bombs back?</p>

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See “Sochi Agreement of 1992.”</p>

<p>James Traub, in the NYT piece, noted the parallel between Russia’s support for self-rule of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and the support the West gave to Kosovo’s “independence.” Parallels can also be drawn with Iraqi Kurdistan and Darfur. But Traub also is quick to judge Russia as aggressive and hostile. His is an occidocentric view.</p>

<p>The Georgians are not evil people, but they have had a string of horrible national politicians. And the US has had a hand in this bloodbath by arming them, militarily training them, and encouraging them to fight for “territorial integrity.” US foreign policy seems to be "Serbia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia bad (aligned with Moscow), Georgia good (aligned with the west and wants to join NATO). There are a lot of differences between Georgia and Serbia, but this kind of thinking is a political dead end and will not stop the bloodshed or restore peace to the Caucasus.</p>

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Oh, yes. Look to the Ukraine next.</p>

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<p>Just several others…? That’s a laugh.</p>

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<p>Newjack, how ludicrous. THe Russian operation couldn’t have been staged without a great deal of advanced planning and preparation. Of course Georgia is not to blame.</p>

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<p>In your zeal to Blame America First and to attack republicans, you are ignoring a very grave threat to world peace and prosperity. It should be shocking that so many have learned so little, but is not.</p>