What a Northwestern grad would do differently

Colleges & Universities Northwestern University
81

<p>And not everyone goes to college to get a liberal arts education. What about engineers? Statisticians? Computer science? What about trade schools? </p>

<p>Also, define well-rounded liberal arts education. Should students take classes in every department? How many from each? Should these classes be the same classes that students majoring in the field take? Why? Why not? </p>

<p>Provide evidence that high school graduates who go to elite schools are not already well-rounded and cultured. We have easier access and more culture to choose from. We have the benefit of learning from the discoveries of mankind. When I went into college, I’d already traveled the world, sampled different cultures and religions, read great works of literature, seen great art, taken college level math, statistics, science, and computer science, as well as government. Is your contention that you can’t be well-rounded unless you go to a liberal arts college? Is your contention that if you go to a liberal arts college, you’re automatically a better thinker than someone who doesn’t? Show me data. Show me that being well-rounded trumps being a sophisticated analyst.</p>

82

<p>Also, prove that colleges don’t try to emphasize their strengths and downplay their weaknesses. Don’t pretend like they are these brutally honest, completely open institutions. </p>

<p>If they were, then why don’t they publish data on the average GPA of students in each major and school?</p>

<p>If they were, then why don’t they go out of their way to make sure their students are definitely in the right school? I told my advisers on several occasions that I did not like my classes and that I wanted to study quantitative public policy. They know that there are other excellent schools with that program, but they never mentioned it. I’m not saying that they seek to hide the truth. They just don’t actively promote it.</p>

<p>Do you think the dean doesn’t know that many NU students don’t think much of their coursework? If he does, then why doesn’t he post that information on the front page of the prospective student website?</p>

<p>It’s not a secret that many kids like me are currently obsessed with getting into Harvard because they think it’s the best school for everyone. But we all know that it’s not necessarily true and that some students would benefit more from a different school or waiting a year or two to enroll.</p>

83

<p>I’m not an entry level worker in my field of interest. I’m not getting interviews for entry level positions in this field. The recession does increase competition for many job openings, but is your contention that I’m less qualified than the people who are getting the jobs? If I’m less qualified, what other reason is there other than that I majored in Economics instead of public policy or government or applied politics and have basically no proven knowledge of how the legislative process works? Why wasn’t I getting interviews before the recession began? </p>

<p>Seriously. I’m done repeating myself for everyone who doesn’t bother to read the thread or to say whether students might benefit from more research into their career and college choices. Try to actually consider what I’m saying before dismissing me as a “whiner.” I have friends who are freaking unemployed. They are incredibly smart. They were unemployed before the recession hit. Explain that.</p>

84

<p>

And yet…

So its not the particular school, its the dysfunctional system. Not you.</p>

<p>If you ever took a psych class, you’d have heard of double-bind communication. And what you write is a classic. But of course the thread isn’t about you; its to give advice to those coming after you so they don’t fall into the same trap. Fair enough. Let’s look at some of the advice you give

The old credential argument. Here’s your 1st problem; you still don’t know how the adult world works. “Proven knowledge” based on classes taken, major earned, etc. is not what gets people jobs in broad swaths of the economy. Including the ones you seem to be interested in. Sure it matters in accounting, engineering, medicine, law, and the like. But I know someone who parlayed a volunteer job in HS in a political campaign into a career; first volunteer in the office after the election, then paid employee, then paid campaign staffer, then thru people he’d impressed jobs running city council and state legislator offices, stints working as a lobbyist calling on the friends made in same jobs, positions working for public relation firms handling legislative issues, and these days a partner is a sizeable PR firm. </p>

<p>Two takeaways here; first, did he have this all planned out when he was 17 and a volunteer? Heck no! Second, did anyone ever ask him for “proven knowledge of how the legislative process works?” He’d bust a gut laughing if I asked him that one! He got jobs because people that worked with him saw he could do the job he was assigned, and do it well. They were happy to recommend him to their friends who needed someone to do a similar job; its called building your network. And of course you get a raise to be lured away. In turn he looked out for his friends, letting them know when something came along they might be interested in. </p>

<p>Your lack of a degree in public policy or government isn’t what’s going to keep you from landing the job you want; its you and your attitude. You have so many opportunities in front of you, so many privileges from your college that the schlunk with the BA from Cal-State Fullerton will never have, and yet they don’t matter a whit if you can’t see them. To paraphrase the Bard, “the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our college but in ourselves”.

Employers aren’t looking for workers that do well in college classes, or who can trump others in a debate. Simply put, you admire something different than employers do. And the way it works out, they’re the ones that do the hiring and not you.</p>

85

<p>Mike: Can I not blame myself as the system? I’m not saying we’re both totally responsible. This is the problem with using vague terminology like “blame” and “responsible.” Just tell me what helps and what doesn’t.</p>

<p>What exactly does it mean for something to be entirely one person’s fault? Nobody I trusted ever told me that I would love Northwestern?</p>

<p>And how can you say that there’s nothing amiss when most kids are encouraged to go for a prestigious school if most jobs don’t require a degree from a prestigious college? Is that not a problem? How is that my fault?</p>

<p>And how do you know what’s wrong with my attitude? I have a network. They like me. They send out feelers for me. They work in the field I want to work in. Yet, they explain that to get a job in the field, you need a degree in the field, preferably a master’s. </p>

<p>Let’s review:

  • You say I don’t need a degree in the field. Everyone I talk to says you do.
  • You say that high schoolers are entirely to blame, even though you believe that kids that want jobs that don’t require an elite diploma are pushed into prestigious schools.
  • You say I don’t have a network. I do. You say I don’t use connections. I do. They just don’t work. Half of the staff went to Ivies, so they know that not every degree prepares you for a career.</p>

<p>I think you’re the one who’s thinking illogically.</p>

86

<p>Also, Mike:</p>

<p>My advice was to:

  • consider picking the school that has the things you want to learn
  • research what it takes to get a job in your field
  • to do internships and build a network of people who can recommend you.</p>

<p>We both believe that networking matters. </p>

<p>We disagree that your college choice matters. I think it can and you think it can’t. Although you do think that Cal-State Fullerton is worse than going to Northwestern. Isn’t that a contradiction?</p>

<p>Tell me what I’m getting wrong.</p>

<p>And tell me:

  • whether kids should research their college choices
  • and research careers,
  • and volunteer or shadow professionals to see what it takes to make it in the field.</p>

<p>You seem to be saying that nobody should try to plan ahead because your friend didn’t and still succeeded. That doesn’t prove that it’s not a good idea for most people. </p>

<p>You also seem to be saying that you should volunteer in fields you’re interested in because it will help you if you decide you want to make that a career. That’s exactly what I’m saying. I just think that in addition to building a network, it helps you find out whether that jobs is for you and what you can learn to succeed in the field.</p>

87

<p>knowbefore - I absolutely get what you tried to do and I do agree, all high school students should get a dose of reality before choosing their college. There are very few kids who know what they want to be when they grow up and exposing themselves to as much as possible is one way to find out, but, it does not necessarily turn into a productive career, especially not immediately.</p>

<p>I’m a big believer in choosing the college that is right for you not for its status or anything else. I’ve said it many times on this board - my daughter chose NU over Yale. After much research, Yale just wasn’t right for her and her goals. Neither was NYU or CMU, she wanted a more rounded education than a conservatory could give her; I believe she’s the only theatre major taking advanced math and history classes. Northwestern works for her in that respect. </p>

<p>College isn’t for everyone, that’s been said before, but you’ve discovered it for yourself and you’re trying to inform others of your discovery. My daughter is considering dropping out of NU because she feels she can do much more getting out into the “real” world; she’s an actor and has done this professionally before college, she often feels she is wasting time going for the degree. My husband is panicked, I’m not sure how I feel. </p>

<p>Your advice isn’t terrible, it’s just from your young point of view, which of course is all you can give. I agree that kids should milk their college for all it’s worth; take all the classes possible and get all that you can out of them, constantly contact your advisor, the internship programs, career counseling, etc. Embrace ever aspect of your school, try new things. So much of what you experience in college has very little to do with classroom learning.</p>

<p>I don’t know why people on this board are being so hard on you, you offered solid advice, in my opinion. Yes, some of it was overly self-involved but, hey, you’re still in your 20s so it’s natural! </p>

<p>I will pass this on to you - there will never be a time in your life when you have more freedom to do as you wish, whatever you wish. College loans notwithstanding, you have (I’m assuming), no ties to keep you anywhere, no spouse, no kids, no responsibilities, not even a job that pays so well or is so fulfilling that it would be foolish to give it up, so, just go, do, explore, whatever. With experience as a consultant you can probably freelance on your own when you need money as you explore the world and your part in it. There are ways to do this, I did when I was in my early 20’s, and I’ve never regretted it. I was poor, living in NYC, and I was thrilled.</p>

88

<p>knowbefore – there is no such thing as getting a college degree and being set for life. Never has been, never will be. A person needs to be able to reinvent themselves because over the years the job market will change. That is what I like about a liberal arts education, it’s generic. A person walks away with a liberal arts education having learned how to think, which is valuable in any job market. Incidentally, people get degrees in computer science from liberal arts schools.</p>

89

<p>Should high school students research the colleges that they are considering attending? Yes.</p>

<p>Should high school students do some research on their possible career paths? Yes.</p>

<p>If you had stopped there you would have been fine…</p>

<p>Does the college you attend owe you anything more than access to an education of your choosing? No.</p>

<p>Is the college you attend responsible for your educational path decisions? No.</p>

<p>Does the college you attend owe you a job you love? No.</p>

<p>Is the college you attend responsible for your career path decisions? No.</p>

<p>If you are being taken to task by this forum it’s because you failed to properly answer the first two questions and now are implying that the answers to the next four questions are yes. Let’s be clear, your tuition buys you access to an education, that’s it. It doesn’t buy you the educational experience you may think you deserve or want; oddly enough, that’s up to you to create.</p>

<p>You started this thread bemoaning the dearth of political/public policy opportunities at Northwestern. Really? I must be woefully misinformed, because the last time I checked Chicago appeared to have an active and colorful political landscape. I find it impossible to accept that you couldn’t find meaningful opportunities to intern or volunteer somewhere in the political machinery of Chicago. Yet any challenge to you position brings a sermon about your university’s shortcomings.</p>

<p>If you are being taken to task by this forum it’s because you insist of somehow blaming Northwestern for your “misfortune”, a misfortune that consists of a moderately well paying job that you don’t like. Worse still, throughout your posts there has been the repetitive theme of, “If only I’d gone to XYZ U, things would have been so different”. This is the biggest delusion of them all. What most everyone has tried to point out is that every opportunity you so desperately wanted was probably available at Northwestern, or any other university you would have attended, if only you had pursued or unearthed it. It is not the college administration’s responsibility to hold your hand and guide you through the process.</p>

90

<p>I totally agree vinceh. I also think there are plenty of posts on this thread where people have been trying to help.</p>

91

<p>As a tangent, but related feed:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, I absolutely did and they remain some of the best classes I’ve taken here. And I’ve taken some amazing, life changing classes here.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, I do. The shortest answer, though incomplete, is to teach you/ make sure you know how to write papers. There are other reasons too though. You seem to be implying it’s arbitrary. I assure you, I’ve spoken with administrators. They put a lot of thought into these things.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Absolutely yes, and if you seriously don’t then clearly they didn’t do the job or you didn’t pay enough attention to them…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I do, though not nearly as often as most of my friends.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Sadly, only when its warm. I’m hoping to do it more now that I don’t have a dorm on campus to flee back to after class. I’ve used much more of campus and its resources since coming back from Japan and moving off campus. I also sadly don’t work out enough, but I should start doing that. I’ll tell myself I will when its warmer out, and hopefully it will be true.</p>

<p>For as much as you claim you don’t blame NU, you clearly harbor a lot of bitterness. You remind me a lot of many other NU malcontents- the kids who are intellectually dead, complain that their classes are meaningless, ideas are pointless because they don’t connect to the real world, NU makes them have too many requirements, the sports suck, there’s no school spirit, everyone wishes they were at HYPS, etc.</p>

<p>Those kids are a small, irritatingly vocal minority who do a lot of damage to themselves by hanging out amongst themselves and convincing their gripes are true. </p>

<p>I absolutely agree kids need to do a better job picking schools- I did a terrible job, and was lucky enough to have a mother who understood me really well and made me apply to NU. I had honestly forgotten I’d applied to it and knew almost nothing about it. I heard back from it last, looked into it, and realized it was a great fit. As it turns out, it was the BEST fit. Funny thing is though, there would have been absolutely 0% chance of my knowing that in HS, since I thought that the big time sports and large Greek scene were anathema to my personality and my ideal college experience. I can’t imagine my life without them now.</p>

<p>So I agree, kid’s should do more to realize how the real world works. But a better solution is to have them examine themselves better, better realize what they are really like, and what is really suited to who they are rather than who they want to be, and pick schools like that. Dare to dream boldly, follow ideas and enrich themselves. Careers will be disappointing- they should know that and not go in expecting anything. But we, the young, should never bow away from a challenge simply because it is difficult.</p>

<p>Sadly this is a mindset I see far too often amongst my peers (here and at other schools) and reflected in the media. What happened to “We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.”</p>

<p>In short, you are what’s wrong with America today. Have a nice day, and good luck.</p>

92

<p>I totally disagree. Why doesn’t my carefully researched (now) opinion matter? </p>

<p>And which challenges did I eschew? I worked my tail off for 18 years and completed a supposedly stellar education. I now know that I could’ve done a bachelor and master’s in the same amount of time in classes that I think do a better job teaching applied policy/politics and that my connections say is sought after by the places I wish to work.</p>

<p>Yes, Chicago has internships, but like many students I worked to support myself during the school year. I also studied all day. Is that really something people tell kids not to do? </p>

<p>I was naive. That’s my point. If kids weren’t naive then they wouldn’t need someone to tell them that a degree is not a sufficient condition for even entry level jobs in some fields. Neither are a few internships. You need a demonstrably relevant skill that can be used immediately to go along with talent and potential.</p>

<p>Seriously, stop telling kids they can’t have any idea of what they want to do with their life until the magic age of 22. It’s not true.</p>

93

<p>I’m just confused by how often you state that you wished you could’ve taken more classes/gotten more education in a field that interests you. Why didn’t you? Why go to NU if they didn’t have what you wanted to pursue? Or is that the point you’re trying to make? It just seems…obvious.</p>

<p>Don’t go to a school just because it has a name you like to hear. I’m going to NU to study film/TV/radio, and doing it because I love the town, love the feel, and like what I’ve seen of the program. And all of my classmates (high school ones) are choosing schools based on their programs. If kids these days are actually pursuing schools just because they sport names like Harvard or George Washington or Northwestern and not researching them, then it truly is their fault, or the fault of adults who thought it was okay to force them toward something because it’s on a Top 20 list.</p>

<p>I never even considered HYSP, etc. because I knew they didn’t have the program that I wanted. No one should look in that direction without considering what is actually being offered to them.</p>

<p>I don’t really like the “the real world has failed me” attitude I’m getting from your posts, but if all you’re trying to say is that a Top 20 education doesn’t promise true happiness or a 100k/year job by the time you’re 23…well…yeah. They don’t. People who say - or think - they do need to take a long step back and look at how the world really works.</p>

94

<p>Knowbefore - I have a hs junior son who has many of the same interests as you. And while he’s a double legacy (actually triple) at NU, he is exploring the DC schools. Was there something that prevented you from exploring Gtown, GWU and / or American?</p>

95

<p>Re: pizza mom</p>

<p>My parents wouldn’t let me apply outside the Top 15-16 on US News. Plus, I believed everyone when they trashed all non-elite schools. I know, I know, I was an idiot…</p>

<p>I’d check out Maryland’s public policy program. Very well respected and can be way cheaper.</p>

<p>And advise him to at least spend a few hours shadowing someone in his career field.</p>

96

<p>Re: perdiddle</p>

<p>It’s not that I don’t make $100/k, it’s that I don’t even get a sniff from nonprofits. And nobody told me I’d need a master’s. My parents straight up told me that a BA was enough if I went to nu. And it is for some people.</p>

97

<p>Join the foreign service in the US State dept… you get to travel, hold a federal position (most secure position of today), AND help people.</p>

<p>Thanks for the advice. Sorry people must chide you so unnecessarily, I realize you are just trying to help :)</p>

98

<p>"It’s not that I don’t make $100/k, it’s that I don’t even get a sniff from nonprofits. And nobody told me I’d need a master’s. My parents straight up told me that a BA was enough if I went to nu. And it is for some people. "</p>

<p>The nonprofit sector in the DC area is very competitive. It’s more about who you know rather than what you know. Many staff members also have advanced degrees for subject expertise and higher salary potential. This is definitely true in the federal government where an advanced degree boosts one’s earning potential on the GS scale.</p>

99

<p>

</p>

<p>Perhaps some of the anger that you hold towards NU should be directed towards parents who were so blinded by prestige and ignorant of how things work in America that they wouldn’t “let” you apply outside the Top 15 on US News. Don’t tell me, let me guess, your parents aren’t from this country and they think that the top 15 schools are the American Golden Ticket to Heaven and that everyone else in schools below are just flipping burgers and sweeping floors. Sigh.</p>

100

<p>knowbefore, I completely forgot - I had another NU classmate who is well placed with the State Department. He and I were in NU’s MMSS program together. As my son was beginning his search, I contacted him and asked him for advice. Here are some relevant parts from his email to me. Granted, he’s more international than what you seem to want. Nonetheless, I hope you find some of this of use to you. </p>

<p>I hope this shows that a NU education is hardly a deterrent to high-level government work. Oh – and this man was not “privileged” entering NU by any stretch of the imagination. He was from a rough neighborhood and his father was a school janitor. And look what he did with his NU education.</p>

<p>

</p>