What a Northwestern grad would do differently

Colleges & Universities Northwestern University
101

<p>This thread has become non-sensical.</p>

<p>Two weeks ago the OP essentially told us that he’d wasted his time attending an inferior university, Northwestern, because they didn’t properly prepare him and worse still, the university, by not admitting that they weren’t superior at public policy was somehow the primary party at fault in the OP’s “dilemma”. The OP’s solution to this problem was to offer up the idea of skipping college and surreptitiously auditing classes at GWU or Georgetown as a better way to achieve his goal. Now we learn that the only real hope he has for success is pursuing a Masters degree. So which is it? A hard scrabble education picked up at the School of Hard Knocks or an MS from Georgetown, (Tip: You may find yourself surprised to learn that Georgetown is actually impressed with your Northwestern degree, so in the interview I’d avoid mentioning what a dump you think the place is)?</p>

<p>I’ll state my case one last time and then I’m gone:</p>

<p>Everything you sought, needed, dreamed of was available to you at Northwestern. Your tuition checks afforded you access to an education. You chose to interpret that access as sitting in classrooms, reading books and taking tests. “Access” also includes developing relationships with professors, using the career center and exploiting the NU alumni network. The fact that you didn’t choose to avail yourself of those opportunities is not NU’s fault but yours. Would you have had access to more opportunities at a DC based college? Undoubtedly, but opportunities exist on a continuum, they are not binary, something your either fail or are unwilling to comprehend.</p>

<p>Here is my advice. Keep working. Save your money. Apply to graduate school in DC. But be forewarned, don’t be shocked when your new degree doesn’t open that many new doors. Good luck, you are most certainly going to need it.</p>

102

<p>This is definitely a generational thing! We have spoiled our kids in to thinking a college degree from a high end school is going to open doors to fortune and happiness! Guess what, it is all about initiative! I am 51 years old, working for a well known manufacturer. I work with Corporate Real Estate people, architects, developers, etc. I know people who went to State schools, Ivy Leagues and Community Colleges. Their educations did not make a difference, their willingness to do any thing to get the job done and hard work made them successful. Look at your Northwestern experience as an EXPERIENCE and quit whining! It sounds like you want to save the world, but also make 6 figures, good luck!</p>

103

<p>Well said, vinceh. I find it odd that the OP blames Northwestern for his misfortune and misguidance when all the resources were available for him to pursue whatever he so desired. My graduate studies (UMichigan) is related to what I majored at Northwestern. In fact, UMichigan alums are everywhere in the DC area. One does not need to attend a DC school to receive a good policy or social change education.</p>

104

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<p>Where do you get your xenophobic attitudes? Most consultants I know tend to be well-travelled. </p>

<p>Internationals in-the-know do not judge American colleges by their US News rankings. And those who aren’t in-the-know do not look beyond the top 5 or 10. Don’t kid yourself. I’ve yet to meet an international who is “so blinded by (Northwestern’s) prestige.” In fact, no one I know, including Americans, is “blinded” or awed by Northwestern.</p>

105

<p>Coming to this discussion rather late, but even though the OP’s tone and general “woe is me” aren’t exactly my cup of tea, I’m going to take a stab at this, and try to be as fair as possible.</p>

<p>I am in the group at which you say you are offering advice - 18, a senior in HS, trying to decide where to go next year. I have to say that the, ahem, “situation” that you are in did make me raise my eyebrows - it definitely doesn’t put a pleasant spin on the world which I’m about to enter. But at the same time, I’m still optimistic - not idealistic, but optimistic - about my life following college. And in general, I think some of your advice is good, and I’m going to take it (granted, I’ve heard it before, but still). My college choice isn’t going to come down on prestige, but rather on the program I favor and general enjoyment of the “feel” of the school. And I already know I plan on going to grad school. These points are good, and in general, I think that you’re right in that choosing a college involves a lot of thought on what the right option is for you.</p>

<p>However, I’m a little startled by your post. I feel bad - clearly you’re not happy with the position you’re in right now - but you’re in your mid-20s, correct? You say that you were unprepared for the knowledge that you would need a graduate degree? Fine. Put up with the job you don’t like for a little while longer, alleviate the debt you still have from college, and apply to grad school at Georgetown or GW to get the degree you feel you need. IN the meantime, though, you’re still young. I don’t know, can you try to get a part-time internship at night? Volunteer at a local charity on the side? Go out with your friends and have fun?</p>

<p>I’ve already admitted that I’m only eighteen, so please don’t accuse me of being overly idealistic. I have cousins who are struggling to find a job out of college and a parent at risk of unemployment. The economy sucks, the job market sucks, and I’m sure a lot of people are in your position right now, so I’m sorry you’re not happy with your life. I’m sorry that you feel you’ve been attacked here. But perhaps if you stop focusing on the downsides of your life, you’ll be able to find more fulfillment? Maybe if you try to enjoy life a little bit more, you’ll figure out a place to go from gere. You’ve still got plenty of life left to live! :)</p>

<p>SIDE NOTE: Pizzagirl, I understand what you mean with your “international” comment and I know you didn’t mean to take offense - I certainly didn’t. I actually laughed a little, because I know a family that moved here from Taiwan, and the mother is EXACTLY like that. But the OP’s parents don’t necessarily need to be international to harbor that kind of attitude. Fortunately, my parents are (fairly) open-minded when it comes to choosing a college, but a good friend who’s a couple of years older than me went through years of intense college pressure from her mother, who is definitely not international. It actually strained my friend’s relationships with everyone else because she truly believed that if she didn’t go to a Top 25 College/University, her life woud be RUINED because nothing would come out of it (Sadly, I’m quoting, rather than paraphrasing). She’s currently thrilled with her college choice, but it took a lot of searching and time.
But I digress.</p>

106

<p>OP,</p>

<p>Straightly from the financial point of view, on average, you get more ROI from paying in-state tuition and going to public flagships than from paying full private tuition at elite universities.</p>

<p>People pay for prestige, more/better research opportunities, the chance to study with higher caliber groups…etc. There are also greater chance (potentially) to land jobs with more prestigious firms. Heck, firms like Goldman Sachs or McKinsey don’t go to most schools at all. You can’t assign dollar values to those. To the extent that one doesn’t land the jobs with McKinsey, big banks…etc and looking strictly the financial returns, he/she is going to think it’s not worth it after all. Firms pay the same salary to all entry level staff, whether they came from 4th-tier schools or 1st-tier schools. The difference is the 1st-tier grad may have easier time to get the job. But once u are there, you are going to feel like “i wish i were like this guy that paid a lot less”. There’s always risk involved; it’s not always as black and white but the <em>average</em> probably says in general, strictly from the monetary ROI perspective, one is better off going to public flagship. That is not the fault of NU or any elite institutions.</p>

107

<p>I tried to be even-handed about this, only to get shouted down. That’s fine. I get that. Personally I don’t think it’s out of line to tell a bunch of kids who are going to college to do something great that it’s probably not going to happen unless they make some changes.</p>

<p>If people want to believe that every kid either knows exactly what he’s getting into or that it doesn’t matter because college is entirely separate from career preparation, they can go on doing that. I did that with the few naysayers I ran into as a high schooler.</p>

<p>All I ask is that kids don’t just pick a name off a Princeton Review List. You can do better. It might take some work (and who wants to do that when you have college apps to fill out), but it’s worth it.</p>

<p>(and to anyone who says that elite institutions have no responsibility to tell students that you might not be able to do what you want even if you study hard and take internships, I disagree on behalf of anyone with a conscience. It’s definitely not something we expect from them, but colleges are thought of as truly benevolent organizations concerned only with the good of its students and receive thousands of federal dollars even if they’re not public. Yeah, it’s up to everyone else to point out their flaws, but let’s not pretend like they’re totally forthright.)</p>

108

<p>Oh, and I know plenty of people at NU and every other kind of school who had legitimately terrible experiences in college. The worst case scenario is not me. I have a job and (some) skills; and I had like 5x more girlfriends than I ever had in high school.</p>

<ul>
<li>Huge lecture classes with boring, cranky professors who mocked students and ignored them when they were asked to collaborate on research.</li>
<li>Awful GPAs (somebody’s got to bring the average down to 3.4).</li>
<li>No social life.</li>
</ul>

<p>I would say about 1/5th about the people I knew had this experience. They always looked so sad, and that made everyone else sad. You really haven’t lived until you’re in a room full of the highest achieving students in the country and they all look like they want to shoot themselves.</p>

<p>I hear this story from people at every school, though. I don’t know what to tell you on that front. Maybe more people need to transfer to the school that fits them. Maybe professors need more extensive training in teaching or higher rewards for helping undergrads research. My coursework was always pretty math and science based, so I expected it to be pretty dry and most of the TAs had taken the same classes, so they were decent tutors.</p>

109

<p>knowbefore: </p>

<p>You have every right to tell kids to try and look at every option to them. I don’t think people have issue with that. What I have issue with is that you think for some reason Northwestern is the reason your stuck at a boring consulting job right now. From the day you enrolled at Northwestern to the day you graduated and beyond, there have been infinite decisions that you made that determined where you are today and you alone made those decisions. All I can say is that your situation has nothing at all to do with Northwestern.</p>

<p>Alot of times you have to work for years at boring tedious jobs to continually move closer to the one job that may make you really happy. I also think alot of kids today see their successful parents and assume that as soon as they graduate, they will be living the life of their parents. What the kids don’t realize is that their parents have had 20-30 years working to get to that lifestyle. They have also probably put in years and years struggling at boring jobs to get to their successful place. I doubt many people graduate from college and are immediately at their “perfect job”. Most times it takes years and years of learning on the job and constantly moving towards that one job that may be the one. And in the end, alot of people may never get the “perfect job” - ever. It just doesn’t happen, and there are alot of life reasons for that. </p>

<p>In your case. You are young and can still move towards that job that may be the right one for you. Every morning you wake up with a clean slate and the free will to decide what is right for you. It is time that you wake up and make a change. Your feeling sorry for yourself is like a ball and chain around your leg. The only way to get going is to wake up and decide to change the situation that you are in. You and your decisions alone will determine your future.</p>

110

<p>Honestly a 3.4 from NU is not terrible at all, I have no idea what you’re complaining about. I think that you just didn’t pick the right path, and that’s definitely not NU’s fault, maybe it’s your own fault like you said for being naive. </p>

<p>I am a senior and have had an awesome time at NU and have little to regret. I’m graduating with a job and satisfied with what I’ve accomplished while I’ve been here.</p>

<p>Don’t blame NU for your shortcomings…</p>

111

<p>Elite schools are thought of by most people as one of the places you go to prepare for a career in government and politics. How does it follow that if Northwestern does not prepare you for the job, that Northwestern has nothing to do with not being able to get or succeed in the job?</p>

<p>Why is it unreasonable to think that kids believe Northwestern does prepare you for the job? Why is unreasonable to suggest that there may be programs that do a better job?</p>

<p>1) Most of us agree that there is no major (at least at NU) built for this purpose. Statistics might be your best option if you want to break in via polling, but poli sci has very few classes on politics and econ is too abstract to prep you for the job.</p>

<p>2) Most of us agree that connections, networking, and experience make more of a difference than the name of your diploma.</p>

<p>Do we really expect so little from universities that we don’t see a problem here? Why are so many kids at these schools unhappy or disappointed? Do we really think that’s not a problem?</p>

<p>Are we really perfectly fine with schools marketing themselves as the best place to prepare for these careers? Of all careers, what is more closely associated with a liberal arts degree than politics? If colleges are supposed to be partners in education, then don’t they have a responsibility to tell students that they shouldn’t be there? (I know that some people believe that a traditional liberal arts curriculum teaches skepticism and is therefore a critical feature of an education, but there are schools that combine the academic mode of thought with specific knowledge and applications for careers. I know because I’ve researched them and visited them and I might just enroll in one. And let’s not pretend like everything’s OK because a master’s program exists. That was four years and more than $100k that could’ve been better spend. That is not a little deal.)</p>

<p>But like I said, it’s mostly up to the kids to make the decisions. We should be focusing on them. It is not as easy as some of you seem to believe it is to convince a high-achieving high schooler to look beyond the Top 20. I was an academic freight train until I was 22. I’d dismissed warnings from people just like me because I believed in the Northwestern brand. You have to show them the evidence, ask them the right questions, and maybe even force them to attend a few lectures at each school. It’s not going to happen on it’s own.</p>

112

<p>You are talking about jobs in the one of the most difficult times in history. And what evidence are you talking about - becuase you and some friends have so called “been mislead” in thinking that you would be happy the minute you graduated. Your whining is really getting old. There are also Alot of people who have graduated and are perfectly happy with the education they have received and the job they have. And you keep bashing the Top elite schools. You have no evidence that your circumstance would have been different had you attended a less expensive less elite school. You have no idea what would have happened. You make alot of assumptions in your arguments - how do you know you would have been better off - you don’t. You are taking your circumstance today and thinking that your education failed you. You will learn in life in all you do - YOU ALONE make the difference - there is no one thing, one school or one person that can fail you. </p>

<p>And my son is at Northwestern pursuing a Chemistry Degree and he could get a job right out of the box with a Bachelors - what he chooses to do is his decision. He never looked at Northwestern for Politics or Government. You are taking your situation and making it like it belongs to everyone - it doesn’t - it belongs to you.</p>

113

<p>Knowbefore opened a legitimate discussion about problems that many people are facing and have faced. I don’t understand why so many are attacking him. The fact is that people need to spend more time looking at jobs and careers and less time looking at colleges. It is not a popular thing to say, I guess.</p>

114

<p>OneMom, I don’t see the unfair bashing. What I do see is knowbefore had unrealistic expectations and wants to blame Northwestern and other caliber schools for HIS decisions. Instead of dwelling on and whining about the past, he should move on and be glad that he has a job. He is in a very fortunate position given the national economic crisis.</p>

115

<p>OneMom</p>

<p>I have to agree with multiple posters that the problem with knowbefore’s comments are his attempt to generalize from his particular circumstances, not his warning to HS’ers to think carefully about the big bad world out there when selecting a college and a major program. I’d second the warning.</p>

<p>But this is an unusual, tough time to enter the workforce. It is naive to believe that there is some magical formula, some specific pragmatic preparation and skill set obtained in college, that will make one unresistingly marketable. It is also dangerous to suggest to those same rising collegians that some “trade” based preparation is the answer. Where would one stand in 4 years if, as was - in fact - the very case with knowbefore, one’s idea of what one wants changes after pursuing a very narrow course of study/preparation? </p>

<p>That knowbefore graduated from Northwestern and landed a job in a competitive, lucrative field like consulting only to ultimately decide it was not for him is unfortunate. But I find it hard to take him seriously when his advice to others is to think twice not only about going to an academically elite college, but possibly college altogether. He can’t possibly understand the difficulty faced by people looking for work today under those limiting circumstances. So yes, the comments by this employed consultant working side by side with Northwestern and U Chicago grads does sound a lot like whining and suggest a problem with reality testing. </p>

<p>Premeds and prelaws along with budding engineers, teachers, thesbians, journalists, scientists, etc., etc. would be hard pressed to find a better place to academically prepare for a career. I know these are not career interests of the OP, but certainly are for a majority of students at NU and he should be faulted for not acknowledging them in generalizing his circumstances to all comers. The vast majority of grads from not only Northwestern but most elite schools leave after four years thankful for the great experiences they’ve had and the leg up offered in the job market by their degree from a university of recognized excellence.</p>

116

<p>“Elite schools are thought of by most people as one of the places you go to prepare for a career in government and politics.”</p>

<p>To be honest, if you wanted a career in government and politics, then I would look at schools that have their strongest areas in…government and politics. Maybe you don’t feel Northwestern has helped you to get into the field, but perhaps you should not have gone to a school that, in your opinion, didn’t even have a good politics major?</p>

117

<p>“Elite schools are thought of by most people as one of the places you go to prepare for a career in government and politics.”</p>

<p>Elite schools are only important for federal positions but it is possible to get a high-paying GS appointment with any accredited advanced degree. Local and state government careers often do not require an elite university education.</p>

118

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<p>The connections and networking I used was the alumni network from my small undergraduate liberal arts college.</p>

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<p>Yes. If I would have heard anyone say that to my daughter while she was making plans to go to college I would have been livid. I didn’t want her to question the decision to go to college. She needs a college diploma, both of my kids do. She is going to a small liberal arts college and I’m not thinking that she will leave with job skills necessarily. She’s getting an education and learning how to think. If she after she graduates she still needs some job skills she can go to graduate school.</p>

<p>Trade schools have their own risks. What if you don’t like the trade, what if that particular line of work dries up. Then you’ve got nothing to show for your time and money. The same can’t be said for the education you receive in college, that’s something you’ll always have.</p>

119

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<p>Of course you shouldn’t. I took my daughter to look at colleges. Harvard had been her number one choice until we visited. Then she realized that she didn’t really want to go there.</p>

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<p>This can’t be true. Anyone who gets to go to college is lucky and they should remember that while they are there.</p>

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<p>You’re all over the map. Now you think your professors weren’t good teachers and undergrads should be doing research?</p>

<p>If you think it is tough finding a job with a college degree you should think about what it would be like to try to find one if you never got to go to college. You’d be facing minimum wage options with no hope that would ever change until you got an education.</p>

120

<p>No one prevented you from looking at the DC schools, knowbefore. If your parents did – that’s not Northwestern’s fault.</p>