<p>tusuntpulcher, most national universities (Princeton, Berkeley, Michigan, UVa, Chicago, etc.) could be considered “liberal arts schools”. I think what you mean is that you are avoiding small liberal arts colleges (LACs), schools without significant graduate divisions. </p>
<p>This is a personal preference. National universities and LACs both have pros and cons. Universities generally do offer a broader selection of courses and more advanced research opportunities. </p>
<p>However, I believe you are wrong to think LACs are “not looked at as top notch”. Some of the most selective schools in the country are LACs. LACs educate a disproportionately high number of future Ph.D.s in most academic fields, including the natural sciences. The best of them seem to have very good records of placing graduates into top law and medical schools.
Forbes (not without controversy) ranks several LACs (Amherst, Wellesley, WIlliams) among the top 10 colleges; more than half of its top 25 are LACs (though USNWR, Kiplinger’s, and Washington Monthly all assign LACS and universities to two separate rankings.)</p>
<p>Yeah, that’s what I was saying. I stated that the majority of schools offer a liberal arts curriculum, but when you say a “liberal arts school,” I generall think of the small liberal arts. While some may be good, I just can’t agree that they are as good or better than the larger schools. Maybe I’m wrong in thinking that (I will be the first to admit I’m certainly not an expert), but that is why I avoided Swarthmore and Washington and Lee, though under normal circumstances I would love to go to those two schools.</p>
<p>There was a study by the Wall Street Journal that placed Williams as the fifth “top feeder” into 15 selected medical, law, and Business programs. It has already been quoted many times on CC, and although I know that many find the report faulty (and outdated,) it does give you some indication of the value of a LAC education, tusuntpulcher. My S looked it up before he decided on Williams, and he chose it over several top universities.</p>
<p>It’s hard to find a perfect compromise between a nat’l university and a LAC. My S likes the research at a large U and the teaching at a LAC. He attends a fairly large HS now (2500+), with lots of $$$ for facilities and so he’s naturally thinking of a bigger school for college. Dartmouth and Brown are on his list, but they’re unpredictable and a huge reach. One other difference (I think), LACs don’t have frats and soroties, which we could just as soon do without.</p>
<p>I have to disagree, tusuntpulcher. Three of my cousins (siblings) went on to highly prestigious medical schools from solid liberal arts colleges: Williams, Carleton and Colorado College. </p>
<p>This is merely anecdotal, but their experience eased my mind when my MD/PhD-bound daughter felt she was better suited to a LAC. Some smaller LACs even make an effort to facilitate research opportunities, etc. My daughter’s smallish college goes so far as to provide funding so every student can experience an internship without being concerned if it’s paid or unpaid.</p>
<p>tusuntpulcher, trust us, you don’t have the experience to warrant making these claims. Look at this chart to see how wrong you are about avoiding LACs because you think they are weaker for undergrads than big U’s at science: [REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]REED”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College) E.g., at Reed, every senior is required to do original research for a year-long thesis. There are no grad students to compete with for research positions at such LACs. If you want to be around a relatively high percentage of like-minded, PhD/research-bound students, consider selective LACs. Then you can move on to the big U for advanced research.</p>
<p>It’s true that on a per capita basis (let alone in absolute terms), national universities tend to have larger research expenditures than even the best LACs. Williams College annually spends about $2,000/student on research; Wesleyan about $3,000. At UC Boulder, it’s about $8,000; at Yale, about $40,000. (These figures are from the Washington Monthly’s 2009 college ranking data, adjusted for student body size.)</p>
<p>I would expect that much of the research at national universities is in very specialized or applied areas, often underwritten by the federal government (defense-related, etc.) You may want to explore if that’s where, as an undergraduate, you are likely to see the most personal growth as a scientist or future medical doctor. Or why a relatively high percentage of students at LACs like Carleton, Reed, or Swarthmore go on to get advanced degrees in the sciences. Maybe ask students at the schools you visit about their research and internship experiences.</p>
<p>Some schools (like Rice or Chicago) combine an excellent research environment with small classes and a relatively intimate, LAC-like atmosphere.</p>
<p>“I have found them to be student’s heaven place-But if this is so why don’t many students turn their faces to these schools.”</p>
<p>The standalone liberal arts colleges teach the same subjects as the liberal arts colleges housed within the universities, they are just smaller and, usually offer little or nothing else but that, and no or few grad programs. Choice of “heaven place” is a personal one, many like things smaller and more intimate, others prefer to have a bigger playground and more choices. Small has consequences of less name recognition, which can lead to fewer applicants I suppose. But I didn’t think the LACs are starving for applicants either, on a per-spot basis. </p>
<p>“So, does it mean that if one gets into Liberal Arts College, one won’t get a job after graduation? Are they competitive?”</p>
<p>My guess is job prospects, and procedures, for liberal arts grads are similar whether they study at a standalone liberal arts college or at a liberal arts college within a university. However I would expect that the degree of on-campus recruiting may differ in some cases. Job candidate quality is important obviously , but the absolute number of good candidates that are there to be interviewed, and location are also factors when companies decide where to focus recruiting efforts. I imagine the very top schools are well recruited, but suggest you check individually about # and identity of firms interviewing on campus if this may be important to you. A number of LACs D1 looked at seemed to be very lighly recruited, to be blunt. While another was much better.</p>
<p>"The children of this generation are extremely narcissistic and arrogant, and feel an insatiable need to assume the reputations of their schools to feel good about themselves and humiliate others. "</p>
<p>That would explain some of what I read on CC, but does not describe my particular “children of this generation”. Perhaps you do not speak for them all.</p>
<p>tusuntpulcher, I’m going to throw out another voice that disagrees that LACs are necessarily worse for sciences, especially if your goal is to go to med school (as opposed to wanting to get into a very narrow/specific field where maybe most LACs wouldn’t have as many classes). </p>
<p>While some LACs are weaker at science, if you go to a LAC with good science and do well, you will have a great shot at top med schools. And if you go to a LAC with good sciences, chances are you will have plenty of opportunities to do research (I know this is true at my LAC). The research might not be as cutting edge as at Harvard, but undrgrads have many opportunities to get into the labs, because there are no grad students, and profs need helpers. </p>
<p>Of course no single LAC will be able to compete with top Unis in terms of say, % of the Harvard med school from that specific school, but that makes sense, since most LACs have far fewer students, and normally don’t have a particularly high number of science students (which could be seen as a bad thing, except it normally means great student/faculty ratios). So maybe top LAC X will only send one or two people to Harvard med one year, but how many people were even applying from that school? Probably not that many. Not because its not good for science, but just because there are far fewer science students, just as there are far e students in general. </p>
<p>And I’d agree that LAC students generally don’t have a harder time getting a job than any other student with a liberal arts degree (with perhaps the exception of jobs on like, Wall Street, though a few top LACs do just fine there, as well).</p>
<p>One reason that many students don’t apply to LACs is simply that they want a bigger school. At an LAC it’s hard to get that “classic” college experience of huge school, huge sports, huge frat scene, etc. that some people (even top students) want. Other people don’t want to go to a school that is smaller than their high school. So while the LAC is the perfect environment for some (myself included), there are plenty of other people for whom it’s not. Not because of job opportunities or prestige, but simply because a small school is not everyone’s dream college.</p>
<p>yea, I think it’s important to remember that med schools are not necessarily looking for candidates with lots of UG research under their belts; you don’t even have to be a science major. Sure, it’s great if that’s what you’re interested in; there are joint MD/PhD programs where you can highlight your interest in research – but, as far as I can tell, it is not a prerequisite to becoming a doctor. It would be a good question to pose on the pre-med CC Forum.</p>
<p>70% of those accepted in medical schools are from the top 20 universities in this country? I don’t believe that for an instant. Citation, please. You’ve spent no time around medicine if you believe that to be true. The vast majority of medical school students attended their state flagship university – just like the vast majority of students in the country. Any medical school has people from top 20’s, state flagships and no-name schools rubbing elbows with one another. That’s how medical school generally is.</p>
<p>I am glad some people in CC, like Gadad, explained LACs to my S and I. Some months ago, I didn’t know anything about LAC’s, because I grew up in Mexico and I only returned to the U.S. 2 1/2 years ago. My S applied to Williams only because he saw it was #1 in the USNWR, and when we saw that he was accepted, I researched Williams in College Confidential and elsewhere, made some phone calls to friends of mine that I know are very cultured, sophisticated and wealthy in the US and Mexico, and they all told me about it, and they were very impressed by his acceptance. I am very glad that I thought “I may have a diamond in my hand and not even know it, so I’d better ask around before I throw it away.”
So I guess if you’re ignorant and aren’t arrogant enough to think only what you know is important, you might end up removing layers of ignorance one at a time. In this case my “I know I’m not very sophisticated but I want my S to be” attitude paid off big time!!!</p>
<p>University of Phoenix 143
Bellevue University 145
FIT 145
Valdosta State University 145
Southern Illinois University 146
Suffolk University 146
Florida Atlantic University 147
Hawaii Pacific University 147
Wayne State University 147
Winthrop University 147
California State Fullerton 148
Richard Stockton College of New Jersey 148
Towson University 148
Baruch 149
The Citadel 149
City University of New York 149
Kennesaw State 149
Houston 149
Marist College 149
Seton Hall 149
University of Nebraska - Omaha 149
University of New Mexico 149
University of North Carolina Wilmington 149
Sonoma State 150
Texas Tech University 150
University of Hawaii 150
University of Mississippi 150
University of Saskatchewan 150
University of South Carolina 150
University of South Dakota 150
University of Wyoming 150
Wright State 150
Franklin & Marshall 151
Marquette 151
Northern Arizona 151
Ohio University 151
University of Cincinnati 151
Arizona State 152
Concordia University 152
Grand Valley State University 152
Michigan State 152
Penn State 152
Purdue University 152
Saint John’s University 152
Saint Louis University 152
Southern Utah University 152
University of California- Irvine 152
University of Connecticut 152
University of Denver 152
University of Miami 152
University of Oklahoma 152
University of Tennessee 152
Baylor 153
Fordham 153
Indiana Bloomington 153
Syracuse University 153
Texas Christian University (TCU) 153
Touro 153
University of Maryland - Baltimore County 153
Ursinus College 153
Virginia Tech 153
American 154
Arizona 154
Ithaca College 154
Ohio State 154
University of California- Santa Cruz 154
University of Florida 154
University of Iowa 154
University of Mary Washington 154
University of Nebraska - Lincoln 154
University of Oregon 154
Colorado University- Boulder 155
Gustavus Adolphus College (is this college real?) 155
Rensselaer Polytech Institute 155
Texas A&M 155
The College of New Jersey 155
University of California- Davis 155
University of California- Santa Barbara 155
University of Georgia 155
University of Illinois 155
University of Minnesota 155
University of North Carolina- Chapel Hill 155
University of Washington 155
Boston University 156
Calvin College 156
Holy Cross 156
Lafayette College 156
Lawrence University 156
Rutgers College 156
University of California- San Diego 156
Wisconsin Madison 156
Texas 156
Calvin College 157
George Washington 157
Tulane 157
University of Southern California 157
Wake Forest 157
Boston College 158
Brandeis 158
Georgia Tech 158
Queen’s University (Canada) 158
Saint John’s College 158
University of California- Los Angeles 158
University of Dallas 158
University of Michigan 158
University of Virginia 158
Washington University in Saint Louis 158
Brigham Young University 159
Byrn Mawr College 159
Colby College 159
Emory 159
John Hopkins 159
McGill 159
New York University 159
University of California- Berkeley 159
Vanderbilt 159
William and Mary 160
Cornell 161
Georgetown 161
Haverford College 161
Northwestern 161
Notre Dame 161
Reed College 161
Washington and Lee 161
Wesleyan 161
Carleton College 162
Claremont McKenna 162
Rice 162
University of Chicago 162
Brown 163
Columbia 163
Dartmouth 163
Duke 163
MIT 163
University of Pennsylvania 163
Amherst 164
Stanford 164
Williams 164
Pomona College 165
Princeton 165
Swarthmore 165
Yale 165
Harvard 166</p>
<p>Source: LSDAS (2008)</p>
<p>A few observations:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>USNWR’s rankings do a pretty good job of capturing the quality of the student body at American undergraduate universities.</p></li>
<li><p>Rice, NYU and William & Mary grads outperform on the LSAT in comparison to SAT results and thus these undergraduate schools are underrated.</p></li>
<li><p>Cornell is the bottom Ivy without doubt and unfortunately for those who claim that Cornell is the “hardest” Ivy to graduate from, these results show that Cornell admits the weakest Ivy League students and graduates a comparatively weak class of graduates.</p></li>
<li><p>WUSTL is grossly overrated and its students underperform on the LSAT in comparison to their SAT scores. It is the only major statistical outlier in that direction ironically.</p></li>
<li><p>The top LACs(Amherst, Williams, Swat, Pomona,etc.) ARE INCREDIBLE.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Although I don’t necessarily agree with ring<em>of</em>fire’s conclusions (particularly in regard to Cornell,) I do agree that the top LACs are superb.</p>
<p>A Bachelor of Architecture is a professional degree, but a B.A. in architecture is not. Yale and Princeton both offer the latter as a liberal arts degree (not a terminal educational qualification to practice architecture.) A number of LACs offer “pre-architecture”, “architectural studies”, or some such (sometimes as a track within History of Art); none, as far as I know, offers the B.Arch. degree (unless in a 3+2 cooperative program with larger schools). As preparation for graduate school in architecture, these B.A.programs typically would include calculus, physics, history of architecture, drawing and other studio art courses, plus electives in areas such as environmental science, a foreign language, etc.</p>