What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

originaloog · May 12, 2006, 10:25am

Northstarmom wrote: “I also think that the professors at a lower ranked public would have less tolerance for students who are creative and who look to test their intellectual limits.”

That statement is total BS! State universities have many students who have the credentials to attend the most selective universities. As a college instructor for more than 30 years I have been privledged to teach hundreds of these students and they are a delight. Many hundreds more are late bloomers who achieve remarkably well on entering university.

I suspect that some of these high achievers would be merely one of many remarkable students in the Harvard classroom. At my university they are usually the stars of the department and are highly rewarded with academic opportunities such as accelerated academic programs, participtation in sponsored research, undergrad members of interdisciplinary research groups, induction into honoraries, selection to participate in intercollegiate academic contest teams, first in line for excellent internship opportunities. They ofter graduate with impressive resumes that would be difficult to achieve if they were “just another” student.

Northstarmom · May 12, 2006, 10:34am

originaloog wrote: "Northstarmom wrote: “I also think that the professors at a lower ranked public would have less tolerance for students who are creative and who look to test their intellectual limits.”

That statement is total BS! State universities have many students who have the credentials to attend the most selective universities. As a college instructor for more than 30 years I have been privledged to teach hundreds of these students and they are a delight. Many hundreds more are late bloomers who achieve remarkably well on entering university."

You missed my point. I was talking about how some professors at lower ranked universities don’t know how to teach students who are brilliant and creative. I also was saying this based on my own experiences having worked as a professor at such a university.

I taught at a state u that was ranked 2 or 3rd tier (depending on the year), and my husband still teaches there.

My experience was that some profs lacked tolerance for students who were creative and who wanted to test their intellectual limits.

For instance, brilliant students complained that they were discouraged from double majoring because professors told them that they might not graduate on time. These students were among the top students at the college – students lured away from top 30 colleges because of the generous merit aid that the university offered stellar students.

Some professors even told journalism majors not to spend too much time working for student media because they “might burn out.” Meanwhile, the student paper was only a weekly, and those same journalism students would be competing in the job market with students who had run campus dailies while keeping high averages.

Some professors also had assignments that were simplistic and were designed to make sure that the weakest students caught up. When better prepared and more intellectually passionate students wanted to do more complex assignments or tried to take assignments to a higher level, the professors would give them lower grades.

This was not the kind of thing that I ever heard of happening at the schools that are the most difficult to get into. That’s because the emphasis at the most competitive schools is allowing the students to learn and to apply their own ideas (based on research, not just gut reactions), not making sure that the students graduate. Out of the box thinking is usually welcomed at such places and as is passion and creativity even when that’s touched with youthful hubris.

originaloog · May 12, 2006, 10:42am

Sallyaep wrote: “Also, to Northstarmom’s point, someone very close to me transferred this year to Cornell from SUNY Binghamton. He decided early on that he wanted to be an economics major. Unfortunately, he had so much trouble getting into classes in his major at SUNYB, and he was so frustrated that the classes that he did manage to get into had so many students in them that if you go to the class less than 5 minutes before it began, you had to stand in the back of the room, that he decided to apply to transfer out.”

Again this seems to be misinformation. I reviewed the SUNY-Bingo enrollments for the Spring 2006 semester. About 95% of undergrad class sections are underenrolled. No frosh lecture sections that I reviewed were closed out let alone over enrolled. One could also assume that most of the classes closed out were not over enrolled. In the economics department only one class was closed out of the 26 I reviewed. In the intro lecture classes a few discussion sections were closed out but most were underenrolled.

sallyawp · May 12, 2006, 10:42am

“A waste?” Heavens no where else can you consort with students such as these: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com…ad.php?t=179932%5B/url%5D”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com…ad.php?t=179932</a>, and many others who are more interested in the getting in than getting educated?

So what you’re saying, then, is that students at elite schools are more interested in getting in than getting educated, and, by implication, students at all of the other schools are dedicated, hardworking and getting an education purely in order to elighten themselves? Come on. Let’s not be inflammatory.

In addition, while I in no way condone what this young “author” at Harvard has done, there are plenty of instances of plagarism across the country, at elite schools, huge state universities and community colleges. From what my professor friends tell me, the problem is getting worse every year. In fact, if this “author” had gone to a regional liberal arts college instead of Harvard, I have feeling that this story wouldn’t have gotten so much press.

Northstarmom · May 12, 2006, 10:44am

An excerpt from the previously mentioned The Atlanta-Journal Constitution article is below. IMO where the student blew it is was apparently not getting any internships while he was in college.

To get a permanent professional job after college now requires that one has worked summer internships for pay or unpaid. This is a big difference from how the world worked when most parents were young.

Companies now want to make sure that the college grads they hire have basic work skills, professionalism, etc. before the companies place them in permanent positions. Often the best that graduating seniors can get is internships, and if those students do extremely well, they’ll be offered permanent jobs. Because the post senior year internships are used as lead in to jobs, it’s easier to get hired for internships after junior year.

The English major below had virtually no chance to get hired by publishing companies, etc. unless they had already done some internships. Just knocking on the door and saying, “Here I am, a stellar Yale graduate,” would get one’s application dumped into a circular file. The folks who’d get hired would be those who had done prior internships and had the portfolio and recommendations to prove that they had done well on them.

Also, if the Yale English major also had edited student publications at Yale, learning copy editing and design skills or had designed or sold ads for publications, those skills also would have translated into jobs. Showing “A” papers written for class would not open doors because that’s not real world experience.

Here’s the article:

"I worked hard in junior high. I worked harder in high school.

I took home more straight A report cards than any kid in my class. I scored just shy of 1400 on my SATs. I rode horses. I played tennis and basketball. I taught English as a second language.

I had no social life until I was 17. But I got into Yale. Then I worked harder than I ever had.

I was sure the payoff would be a multitude of attractive, not to mention lucrative, job offers upon graduation. Then the bottom dropped out of the economy.

So far, my Yale degree has secured me an e-mail forwarding address and a lifetime of alumni dues notices. Not exactly what I expected.

I was an English major which, for most people, roughly translates into “I have no marketable skills.” But that’s not so. I have many valuable skills honed during my days with Dickens, my nights with Nabokov, those wee hours with Woolf.

First of all, you know I can read. And I don’t mean read like “Hooked on Phonics” read. I can read long, wordy, small printed works with relative speed and what’s more, I can remember what I have read and write long, wordy, papers about it without any trouble. I have developed impressive analytical skills. I am trained to think – really think – about everything I read. And I am accomplished at putting those thoughts on paper.

So where does that all leave me? Unemployed.

I have taken that Yale degree to marketing firms, publishing companies, advertising agencies, and it has not worked any magic. If I leave the degree behind, I am hired on the spot to wait tables for $10 to $20 an hour depending on tips…"

mol10e · May 12, 2006, 10:45am

Teaching ineptitude is not limited to 2nd and 3rd tier state U’s. The Ivies have their share of duds when it comes to teaching in the classroom. I am not sure that the differences you see between the upper and lower tiers is due to the competitive schools “emphasis on allowing students to learn and apply their own ideas”. In some cases it is a case of benign neglect where the students at the most competitive schools are expected to sink or swim based on the effort they wish to expend on a particular class, EC, sport, or whatever.

sallyawp · May 12, 2006, 10:46am

“Again this seems to be misinformation.”

It’s not misinformation, it’s factual information from a student who lived it. You can review enrollment information all day, but what you reviewed and what you saw clearly didn’t provide you with the clarity that you were seeking.

dmd77 · May 12, 2006, 11:03am

Hmmm, that Yale grad got an article published in the Atlanta newspaper, pretty good start for a journalism/writing career. Now, if s/he stops expecting everything to fall into his/her lap just because of a Yale degree and does some more freelance work, there might just be a future there.

I just read a great book called Waitress–there’s a woman who didn’t let life get in her way!

Hanna · May 12, 2006, 11:07am

In my observation, Harvard can be pretty “sink or swim” when it comes to individual courses. If you want to flunk for some reason, you can go right ahead, and no one’s going to stop you unless you ask for help. The support comes in where students are allowed to return after taking one or more semesters off – usually with limitations placed on their EC participation. One of my good friends, who had a lot of family crises come up in what would have been his freshman and sophomore years, entered Harvard with my class in fall 1995 and graduated with the class of 2005. Unless there’s a serious ethical problem or something, I don’t see anything wrong with giving a kid several chances to get his act together. Each failing grade goes on his transcript, after all; it’s not like there are no consequences.

Northstarmom · May 12, 2006, 11:21am

“Teaching ineptitude is not limited to 2nd and 3rd tier state U’s. The Ivies have their share of duds when it comes to teaching in the classroom.”

I’m not suggesting that teaching ineptitude is limited to 2nd and 3rd tiers. Indeed, places like Harvard are not known for the excellence of their teaching, but for the excellence of their professors’ research, something that may not benefit most undergrads.

I am saying, however, that the second and third tiers, particularly the publics, are more likely to have professors who teach in ways designed to help students learn the material so that they will pass the course and eventually graduate.

As a result, those schools and profs are likely to have rules that places like the Ivies aren’t going to have because the Ivies graduation rates are very high. The things that professors have to do at second and third tier schools to keep many students on track for graduation are things that bore and turn off the brighter, more motivated students.

As an example, I was surprised to find out that at the third/second tier public where I taught and at the second tier public where I recently took classes for fun, students would automatically get “Fs” for missing 5 clases. Apparently those rules were necessary to make sure that students went to class so that they’d learn the material.

I don’t remember any such rules at Harvard, though some classes had some relatively minor proportion of the grade related to class participation. In general, my classes required a midterm, final and term paper, and as long as you did well on those, you would pass the class, and probably would do so with a high grade. (Yes, there is grade inflation. At the same time, though, the college is filled with bright students who can do well on essay tests and term papers.)

When I taught at the second/third tier, I found that I had to assign work that was mainly to make sure that students read their textbooks. Otherwise, unless I directly taught the material in class, the students would not know it. Many students wouldn’t even read the syllabus and then would be surprised at how their grades were calculated. One prof whom I knew solved that problem by giving a test on the syllabus.

Doing such things --testing on the syllabus-- making sure that all material on tests was covered in lectures – are the types of things that the brightest students find boring, but that are necessary in order for the less motivated and less prepared students to get the grades necessary to graduate.

Because professors at second/third tier publics have to focus on techniques that help students get the grades to graduate, they may not know how to respond to students who are bright and highly motivated. Consequently, the professors may respond to those students with advice that is discouraging and inappropriate such as telling them not to double major or not to spend time in ECs that similar students at more competitive colleges are devoting lots of time to while keeping high grades.

If I were looking for excellence of teaching, I’d check out the colleges in Loren Pope’s “Colleges that Change Lives” and I’d also check out liberal arts colleges in general. I think that the people who enter college teaching because of a love of teaching are more likely to be teaching at places like those than at places like Harvard, where research is more highly valued by the administration than is teaching.

idad · May 12, 2006, 11:40am

While attending grad school at an elite University I was an instructor for a course (a special topics course that was a mix of med students, grad students & undergrads), and was a TA in a couple courses where I did not teach directly. To pick up a couple of extra bucks I took an adjunct post at a nearby lower tier school. I was told that I needed to be aware of the difference and taught one course doing the quiz, direct teaching of text part etc. The next time, I said to hell with this and taught it in the analytic, paper driven, discussion format, essay style exams that test extension and application used at the school where I was trained. A miracle ensued. The students woke up! We had a great time and their work grew to match that of many of the elite students. I remember taking their papers back to show profs at the school in which I was enrolled, they expressed amazement at the work as well. I did this for several different courses and found the same result. It was a great lesson for me, and suggested just what some students can do regardless of the tier.

viewpoint · May 12, 2006, 11:46am

“The next time, I said to hell with this and taught it in the analytic, paper driven, discussion format, essay style exam that test extension and application used at the school where I was trained. A miracle ensued. The students woke up! We had a great time and their work grew to match that of many of the elite students”

Northmom, have you read “Escalante, the best teacher in America”. A math teacher in a ghetto Hispanic high school, produced one of the largest number of students passing the AP Calculus test simply by being an inspiring and dedicated teacher.

DRJ4 · May 12, 2006, 11:54am

iDad,

What a great story. The best teachers keep learning along with their students. Those kids were lucky to have you.

Come to think of it, every school - in any tier - is lucky to have good teachers.

SBmom · May 12, 2006, 12:06pm

dmd, exactly my thought. Nobody seemed to notice that whining about unemployability actually created the employment. Pretty clever!

Let me offer another perspective. I was an English major too. I further specialized in poetry. Since I had no interest in teaching, supposedly I too had studied my way into a career cul-de-sac.

Here’s the difference: The best thing I learned at college was not literary analysis. It was attunement to my inner voice, ability to recognize the best available option, the courage to experiment, and a fundamental certainty that I could and would figure it all out eventually.

Senior year, I went to a couple of interviews with ad agencies and publishers-- the whole “bow blouse” track seemed depressing and dull. Instead, upon graduating I fled to France to nail down that language that I had long studied but never mastered.

Why? Was it to add french to my arsenal of ‘marketable’ skills? No. It was because (a) it sounded fun and (b) thanks to a friend a year older, I had a lead on an apartment and a job-- a low level one that required no degree. But mostly: (a) it sounded fun!

Scanning my horizon, France seemed like the best available option, so that’s what I did. After mastering french and extending my working papers to the bitter end, I moved back to NYC (where most of my friends had moved after college.)

By this time I wanted to get into film/t.v., but it is hard to break in to film. Initially, I worked freelance doing odd jobs through friends for about a year-- tutored french (bartered tutoring for place to live), worked in the office of a shipping company, worked as a production assistant in industrial films. Nothing to write home about… all pretty boring, actually. Made no money… and worse, I really needed something to engage my brain.

I became interested in a charitable cause and decided that, since I had no money but abundant spare time, I would create an event to raise $ for this cause. This event led to meeting someone devoted to this same cause whose husband was very powerful in entertainment-- a few months later, it turned out he needed an assistant-- et voila, I had found my way in the entertainment biz door. Got recruited away from that job, HATED the next one, quit to write and was making six figures by age 27. (By the way if I had LIKED that job I might never have turned to writing!)

So it took me 5 years. The first four and a half, I did not break $28K, and I am sure my parents were TERRIFIED. But finally I got there.

This is why I want to bang my head on my desk when I hear kids strategizing college majors… It doesn’t matter what your major is. It matters that you can think, strategize, know what you like, find interesting things to do, have fun, and recognize the best available option when it presents itself. It matters that you can grab for the next bar with no net below you but determination and a good brain.

Brown taught me how to follow interest, excitement, joy, and emotional fulfillment without a strict game plan. The clear A,B,C. path can be safer but it isn’t always as fun.

Alumother · May 12, 2006, 12:08pm

Every time I read this thread, here’s what I think. Let us give total credence to those who argue against the value of elite universities. Let us concur that the top 25 colleges offer no advantages better than colleges 100-125.

Then why the competition in admissions? Huh? Is the entire academically high achieving population simply speculating? Buying tulip futures if you will? Buying Pet Rocks, to bring this up to the last century?

BTW, SBMom, I have had a path v. similiar to you. One might argue that we would have had this path Ivy or no Ivy. But in my case, I know the Ivy degree got me in the door of the wage-earning even after a journey through the land of the follow your bliss. And the Ivy education, the part in the classroom and in my dormroom reading literary criticism, well, that brought me unadulterated intellectual joy. Which would have been valuable whether or not I ever used the diploma stamp for $$$.

Northstarmom · May 12, 2006, 12:12pm

“Northmom, have you read “Escalante, the best teacher in America”. A math teacher in a ghetto Hispanic high school, produced one of the largest number of students passing the AP Calculus test simply by being an inspiring and dedicated teacher.”

Yes, I have read Escalante, and Marva Collins as well as books by others who have done excellent jobs teaching students whom many didn’t expect much out of. I also have done whatever I could to go to workshops by excellent teachers.

Also, when I taught at the 2nd/3rd tier, my students won major journalism national writing awards all over the country – based on things that I taught in my class. About 20 such awards were won my by students during the 6 years that I taught at that college. The winners at my school included students who were first generation college.

My techniques differed from that of some other teachers. For instance, one prof who had taught the class that I ended up teaching had thought it was just terrific when students write for a “publication” that was a bulletin board in the hall. That prof had the students write anecdotes. The students were just so proud to see their anecdotes “published” on the hall bulletin board. I thought that teaching college juniors and seniors who were journalism majors in that way was insulting and condescending.

My students’ final projects were well- researched feature articles, including some that ended up winning major awards.

I also had friends who were top journalists from around the country – including Pulitizer Prize winners – come in at their own expense and be guest speakers at my classes. For students to achieve at a high level, the need to hear the work techniques of the people who achieve at a high level.

Up to hearing people like my guest speakers, my students tended to think that luck, not hard work – rewriting, thinking, reading, research – was what caused people to be good writers. Hearing how, for instance, a Pulitzer Prize winner had turned to Faulkner and other fine writers before writing on deadline a Pulitzer winning long article in one of the country’s top papers – an article that she said ran with no – NO – changes by copy editors – let my students know that I wasn’t being arbitrary or mean to expect them to turn in excellent work.

Anyway, when I was doing all of this, I also was getting flack from my boss who thought that I was expecting too much of my students to expect that they could learn to write as well as students at top schools. That boss only expected me to submit my students work to a particular contest because it gave the department $ if the students submitted. I thought the bar was too low. I expected my students to win, and they did.

I didn’t buy it that just because a student was first generation college or was poor that they could not learn to write excellently if they applied themselves and used the techniques that good writers used.

While we are on this subject, I just got a thank-you call last week from one of my former students – who was first generation college – who just got accepted into one of the country’s top journalism fellowship programs. She called to say, “Thank you for believing in me.”

Anyway, my office tended to be the refuge of bright, hardworking students from a variety of majors who were unhappy with the simplistic teaching methods and low expectations that they encountered too often. Many still keep in touch years after graduation.

My favorite quote comes from motivational speaker Les Brown, “Nobody rises to low expectations.”

blossom · May 12, 2006, 12:24pm

Alumother, I don’t think the backlash is against people claiming that the top 25 colleges have some advantages over the rest of the pack… the annoyance is from parents like me who object to the self-congratulatory tone that some the of the posters have taken as they describe the elite environments from which they sprang. Yes, students at Harvard are passionate and energetic. However, no need then to disparage kids who graduate from Wisconsin and Illinois or Bard or Hobart as somehow lazy slugs who are too busy getting wasted to write for their school paper unless they’re getting credit for it or are journalism majors.

This thread has turned into a monstrous, “I went to Harvard therefore I am hot stuff” bumper sticker… so the rest of us… who may genuinely have an interest in some facts… are getting tired of hearing people toot their own horns. Yes, you were a brilliant 18 year old; we’ve now heard that you’re a brilliant 50 year old. Get over yourself already or share the kool aid.

SBmom · May 12, 2006, 12:25pm

Alu,

I agree… but on the connections side, I forgot to mention that virtually all my introductions went like this:

job in France = friend from RISD
apartment in France = friend from Harvard
French tutoring lead = boyfriend from Harvard
Shipping Lead = friend from Brown
Industrials Lead= friend from Brown
Charity event = gathered 10 friends from Brown to do it
When I was recruited away lead= friend from Harvard

Once I quit to write:
first helpful intoduction to agent = friend from Brown
my agent = Brown alum
my lawyer = Brown alum

SBmom · May 12, 2006, 12:31pm

blossom, that is UNFAIR.

Identifying the advantages inherent in Ivy education IN NO WAY disparages anyone. I think it is sour grapes – people are trying to argue there IS no advantage. FINE, if you don’t think there’s an advantage. FINE if others have experienced the advantage and subscribe to that belief. FINE if you went to an Ivy and fell on your face. FINE if you never went to college and now rule the world.

Why are you so defensive?

NOBODY has argued that brilliant kids and successful people can’t be found all over the place, nor that everyone at an Ivy is ‘better.’ We are simply pointing out what we believe has stuck with us over the long haul that we (perhaps incorrectly) ascribe to having attended the college we did.

Alumother · May 12, 2006, 12:32pm

SBMom, Hmmmm. And therein lies the rub. (Edited: Note - was replying here to the post on your connections but agree with your post directly above).

Blossom, Well, what if you take a different perspective? What if we aren’t congratulating ourselves on being brilliant but rather thanking our lucky stars for what we got to experience? What if actually we are happy to have been given some genetic endowment of brain cells, grateful and quite guilty about the ancestral access to good education, and just want to make sure that amidst the leavening of the rising hype around HYPS no one argues in the reductio ad absurdum tradition?

Besides, where else could I have learned all these big words:)?

What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

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