<p>Garland - Handing the baton to you. Good luck in your leg:)</p>
<p>I have not read all the messages posted here but has anyone thought about the impact which academic fit plays in opening doors come graduation? I am asking because of the situation our son finds himself in now.</p>
<p>He did not apply to any “reach” colleges because of $ issues. However he got accepted to a number of matches and safeties and ultimately decided to attend Rensselaer to study computer science and AI. He just finished his soph year with a cumulative gpa of 3.75 which places him well within the top 10% of his graduating class.(yes-RPI computes class rank every semester) He was also inducted into the department’s honorary, is on track to graduate with a BS/MS in 9 semesters(should he choose to do so), and has been invited to work with on open source software projects with one of his professor’s this summer. No money but whatever.</p>
<p>While we all naively expect our progeny to perform excellently in the classroom, I believe that this is likely to be an unrealistic expectation for students choosing to attend “reach” colleges. If they are in the bottom third of admittees it is probable that most will graduate in the bottom half of the class and very few will rise to the top decile of their graduating class.</p>
<p>I suspect that our son will have better opportunities come graduation than if he had attended the likes of Cornell and graduated somewhere near the middle of the class with a 3.0+/- gpa because that is where he would have been based on his SAT/hs gpa/rank numbers.</p>
<p>Much is made of the high end jobs/elite grad and professional school doors that open for Ivy grads and, indeed some companies do only actively recruit at these super selective colleges. BUT, they are only recruiting the top graduates of these colleges. Same goes for those superselective grad/professional schools.</p>
<p>Originaloog, in the engineering field, RPI <em>is</em> considered one of the top colleges. Yes, they give merit money, but that’s because not many people want to go to Troy, NY–not because they aren’t excellent.</p>
<p>Soozievt notes,"Taxguy, it is not a given that a more selective college equates with bigger school debt. Sometimes, that is the case but surely not always. So called “top colleges” sometimes have more money to give. I’m happy with the financial aid at Brown. "</p>
<p>Response: This is true; however, the ivy leagues don’t usually give any merit aid. Thus, you either get some good need based aid or you better have rich parents or you incur large debt.</p>
<p>As for large debt, compare what the tuition is for Brown or that of any ivy l.eague or for CMU and compare that to your instate flagship university.</p>
<p>originaloog raises very interesting question. Is it better to be a big fish in a shallow pond or a little fish in a deep pond? Only time will tell.</p>
<p>But here now you are inserting logic in the equation. I have said it to my wife and all my friends that if you think logically, spending $45 K/yr makes no sense.</p>
<p>SBmom, this is what I objected to right from the beginning…</p>
<p>You have an elite school and a non-elite school. They participate in the same activity. In this thread, that activity was elevated at the elite school and denigrated at the non-elite school. </p>
<p>The kids that were doing the activity at the elite school were doing it for the love of it, those at the non-elite school were doing it not for the love it, they were doing it for a future job. The motivations of the elite school kids were some how purer than the motivations of the non-elite kids. I object to this.</p>
<p>Then Yulsie, who I respect, made a nice post, but in a context that I hated. The post said students that participate in an activity at an elite school are making intelligent choices and having intelligent discussions which implied to me that students that go to a non-elite school are not. </p>
<p>I was rough on Yulsie’s post, so I publicly apologize to Yulsie for that.</p>
<p>Then I mentioned the aluminum and silver spoon story, and that I think some of the elite schools are clubs.</p>
<p>I’m not going to put words in poster’s mouths, but I think that is what some are really protesting about.</p>
<p>Then we talked about connotations.</p>
<p>We talked about connections. </p>
<p>Somewhere you wrote about some kids having an advantage and that doesn’t imply others are at a disadvantage. We both know this isn’t true.</p>
<p>Then I wrote about some of my observations. </p>
<p>CautiousPessimism wrote a nice post and I wrote a post based on that. Do you really disagree with what I actually wrote in response to that nice post?</p>
<p>So to sum up my thoughts.</p>
<p>An “intelligent” person doesn’t mean he is more motivated than somebody with less intelligence.</p>
<p>An intelligent person may not perform an EC with more intelligence, passion or motivation than a less intelligent person.</p>
<p>A group of people at an elite school may not perform an EC with more intelligence, passion or motivation than a group of people that go to a non-elite school.</p>
<p>These last three paragraphs are what got me any many others to post multiple times on this thread.</p>
<p>Next thing I’ll read, Harvard’s baseball players play with more passion, motivation, and intelligence than Cal-State Fullerton players. </p>
<p>Uh, no. </p>
<p>To continue… </p>
<p>A person’s intelligence is not determined by where he goes to school.</p>
<p>You can get a great education at many places.</p>
<p>I never said “on average” an education at a mid-tier school was the same was that of an elite school; although, I get asked the question a lot on this thread. :)</p>
<p>I</p>
<p>"I suspect that our son will have better opportunities come graduation than if he had attended the likes of Cornell and graduated somewhere near the middle of the class with a 3.0+/- gpa because that is where he would have been based on his SAT/hs gpa/rank numbers.</p>
<p>Much is made of the high end jobs/elite grad and professional school doors that open for Ivy grads and, indeed some companies do only actively recruit at these super selective colleges. BUT, they are only recruiting the top graduates of these colleges. Same goes for those superselective grad/professional schools."</p>
<p>This is something a lot of kids don’t know about. The top recruiters usually specify that only those with gpa > 3.x, apply at all. Often only those in the top 1/3 or so in the Ivies can even submit resumes. Many in the bottom 2/3 go jobless in spite of all their hard work in high school and college.</p>
<p>I know of an MIT and a Rice grad (2 brothers) who graduated colleges with gpa’s below 2.5. (Both had been National Merit Finalists.); they finished their colleges in the bottom 10%. </p>
<p>Because of their low GPA, they couldn’t even apply to become public school teachers in my area where potential teachers need min. 2.5 GPA. Both of them are in their 40’s and never held any real professional jobs, and apparently doomed to an eternal struggle.</p>
<p>Had they attended state schools, they would’ve graduated with acceptable GPA’s and at least become high school teachers. Plus, they might have attended the state schools for free because of their high stats.</p>
<p>dstark, You are confusing me with many other posters! Happily you are arguing mostly with opinions that are not mine. </p>
<p>However, with respect to my comments on advantage/disadvantage:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What I said was that just because there is AN advantage to an elite school, does not mean there can’t be OTHER advantages to other schools. Oog just pointed one of them out. And I said that bright kids will utilize the advantages that present themselves.</p>
<p>The elite schols offer a set of advantages, but not all advantages. Other schools offer a different set. </p>
<p>So, while technically a very bright kid from mid tier U may not have had such a high concentration of high-achieving students in his school, and while he may be at a “perception” disadvantage when compared to a kid from Yale by a job recruiter, the mid-tier kid could have realized many <em>other</em> advantages-- higher GPA, less debt, being a standout who got research opps, having a better alumni network in that region, etc. </p>
<p>The club part is a sticking point. I concede that there is a club aspect to an Ivy education; it is not why I picked Brown but I can’t deny that it has paid off for me in my post-college life. Then again, my H went to a top public (UVa) & he also seems to have a club benefit. In the SF Bay area, my parents have big time club benefits from UCB & Boalt (much better than I would have there via Brown). </p>
<p>The higher the perception of a school’s excellence, & the more happy alumni in the area/field, the better the “club” aspect works.</p>
<p>I have a friend who frowns every time she mentions a student who chose to go to a honors program at a state school. We are on the east coast and it seems that the general perception is that you’re crazy if you turn down an Ivy or other top school like Duke. Money is sometimes the reason behind the choice, but other times, there’s a better fit with the state U social environment. Or, like mentioned here, a preference to stand out as one of the smarter students on campus instead of mixing (and competing) with a sea of exceptional kids. In an ideal world, every kid (and parent) would be proud of their school. But we live in a very status driven society, and we fall into the trap of pushing our kids to brand name schools.</p>
<p>SBmom, I don’t have you confused with other posters. I’ve been asked certain questions, and they are not based on what I am saying. You asked me a similar question so I thought I would take the time to clarify. Now I know why Susan writes such long and detailed posts. :)</p>
<p>“The club part is a sticking point. I concede that there is a club aspect to an Ivy education; it is not why I picked Brown but I can’t deny that it has paid off for me in my post-college life. Then again, my H went to a top public (UVa) & he also seems to have a club benefit. In the SF Bay area, my parents have big time club benefits from UCB & Boalt (much better than I would have there via Brown).”</p>
<p>Why is this a sticking point? It’s what is. I don’t understand why what is reality is so difficult to acknowledge. Acknowledging this doesn’t make you a lesser human being.</p>
<p>Marite posted this in another thread.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/05/13/class_matters/[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/05/13/class_matters/</a></p>
<p>NEW HAVEN – When Aurora Nichols arrived at Yale University, obvious markers set her apart from wealthier classmates. She worked in a campus dining hall, and, lacking a laptop, she haunted the often-empty computer lab. But the swiftest betrayal of her roots was weekend planning.</p>
<p>''I found myself having to say things like, ‘We don’t have a house in the Hamptons – and, by the way, I don’t know where that is,’ " said Nichols, 21, whose mother works as a truck driver and whose father is a self-employed handyman in Virginia. ''I mean I am glad to be part of this club, this very elite, very private club. I just wish someone had given me some clue about what it was"</p>
<p>Aurora Nichols has no problem mentioning she is part of a club and is glad.</p>
<p>Why do people have problems admitting that, when they go to an exclusive school, they are part of an exclusive club and they are glad?</p>
<p>Is it because, if they admit this, then maybe, going to an elite school for the education wasn’t really the real reason they chose that school? Maybe not the primary reason? Maybe the education was the primary reason, but the club aspect was important?</p>
<p>You can answer these questions or not, think you are agreeing with me or not, but please don’t ask me if I think a mid-tier college education and an elite college education are the same. :)</p>
<p>"You have an elite school and a non-elite school. They participate in the same activity. In this thread, that activity was elevated at the elite school and denigrated at the non-elite school. </p>
<p>The kids that were doing the activity at the elite school were doing it for the love of it, those at the non-elite school were doing it not for the love it, they were doing it for a future job. The motivations of the elite school kids were some how purer than the motivations of the non-elite kids. I object to this.
"</p>
<p>That’s because the activity – participating in a student newspaper – was something that is directly related to getting a job when it comes to students who attend colleges with journalism programs. Students choose to be journalism majors in top journalism schools because the students plan to be journalists. They not only love journalism, they plan to make their careers in that field.</p>
<p>Places like HPY, however, don’t attract many students who want to be journalists. They attract lots of students who want to be in (nonjournalism) businesses, lawyers and doctors.</p>
<p>In journalism programs, participating in student media is required . In other words, students get actual class credit for doing this, and their activities may be required just as performing lab experiments are required for many science courses .</p>
<p>In addition, the work that journalism students do on student media is required for them to get internships and entry level jobs in their field of choice.</p>
<p>The more highly ranked the journalism program, the more stringent are the requirements for participating in student media.</p>
<p>Anyway, the difference between the most selective colleges – for instance HPY (all of which student newspapers I recruited from as a corporate journalism recruiter), relatively few students have any desire to be journalists. Those universities also lack journalism majors, so students get absolutely no course credit for participating in student media, which also are run by students, not faculty (as is the case at some journalism schools).</p>
<p>Despite the fact that student newspapers have in general nothing to do with HPY students’ career plans, the universities produce daily newspapers, and have many students who spend the bulk of their free time on the papers – simply out of love for their journalism hobbies. </p>
<p>While, for instance, the journalism student at University of Missouri or Northwestern (which have 2 of the country’s top journalism programs) probably are equally passionate about working at student media as are the students on the newspapers at HPY. The difference, however, is that the HPY student is likely to be passionate, too, about their nonjournalism major, and also is working in the student newspaper without getting any support from the faculty (since the HPY students can’t get course credit for participating in student media). Their only reasons for doing this is likely to be love of that extracurricular, not trying to boost their careers or impress the faculty. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, there’s nothing wrong with the journalism students who work hard at their student newspapers. It’s wonderful that they are willing to make that kind of investment in their career aspirations. Such students do, however, differ from students who put a lot of effort into hobbies that have nothing to do with their careers.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, when it comes to lower ranked journalism programs, students do on the whole lack passion about getting involved in student newspapers. That’s why some (not all!) colleges with much larger undergrad populations than HPY have difficulty producing weekly newspapers despite having journalism programs while HPY produce daily newspapers.</p>
<p>So basically, choosing an Ivy over a state school is a crappy choice?</p>
<p>I really hope that is an incorrect assumption I just made, but it seems like it from this discussion.</p>
<p>"The club part is a sticking point. I concede that there is a club aspect to an Ivy education; it is not why I picked Brown but I can’t deny that it has paid off for me in my post-college life. Then again, my H went to a top public (UVa) & he also seems to have a club benefit. In the SF Bay area, "</p>
<p>And all depends on where you live. For instance, the area where I live had not had a Harvard club for more than 10 years, when a club was started last year. Thirty-five people came to the lunch, and that included some people who came from more than 100 miles away. </p>
<p>This is in a mid sized city where there’s a large second tier public university. The people who attended the local public university rule in this city, holding most of the influential jobs, and having a very large alum network. Being an Ivy grad doesn’t open doors here. Being a State U grad does.</p>
<p>No one said that choosing an Ivy over a public is a bad choice. One shouldn’t, though, choose an Ivy assuming that you’ll get rich or you’ll have an extensive alumni network that will help you get the job that you want.</p>
<p>Getting rich depends on lots of things including your own work ethic, choice of grad or professional school, and your choice of career. There are plenty of grads of public universities that became rich.</p>
<p>Whether an Ivy alum network will help you depends greatly on where you plan to live after graduation. If, for instance, you are from Mississippi and plan to return there after graduation, I would bet that going to Ole Miss would be of greater help to you in networking than going to Cornell or Harvard because there just aren’t those many Cornell or Harvard grads in Miss. who could help you out. In addition, Mississippians may raise eyebrows at you for leaving the area to get an Ivy education, which many people might think as caused you to abandon your roots.</p>
<p>On the other hand, having an Ivy education might be of great help in networking in D.C., Boston, NYC, and other big cities where there are thriving Ivy alumni clubs and lots of Ivy grads in influential jobs.</p>
<p>So where does a Princeton alumni get connections?</p>
<p>“This is in a mid sized city where there’s a large second tier public university. The people who attended the local public university rule in this city, holding most of the influential jobs, and having a very large alum network. Being an Ivy grad doesn’t open doors here. Being a State U grad does.”</p>
<p>So Northstarmom, does that mean there isn’t the frenzy to go to an IVY league school in your community?</p>
<p>Do the strong academic student’s in your community go to the state school?</p>
<p>Are some of these students “elite” caliber students?</p>
<p>While there are some students from my city that go Ivy, most students choose to go to instate publics where they get full merit aid. This includes students who turn down Ivies to do so. I don’t live in a state with top publics like Berkeley and Michigan. </p>
<p>Some students also turn down Ivies for things like top scholarships at top 30 universities that offer excellent merit aid and perks to top students. </p>
<p>One such student, the offspring of educators including the head of our local gifted program, turned down Harvard for major merit aid and ended up getting a a Rhodes Scholarship. Another turned down an Ivy to go to a top 30 with excellent merit aid including guaranteed international travel. Shortly afterward, one of her parents, who had been a prof at our local public u, accepted a faculty job at an Ivy. I know another student who turned down a top 10 LAC – with great merit aid – for full merit aid from a state 2/3 tier, and afterward went to Harvard for doctoral studies.</p>
<p>Wait, I thought soozievt recently said that you can get more money from the top schools (such as Brown and NYU) and that state schools don’t give much merit aid? I am thoroughly confused.</p>
<p>Many state universities give excellent merit aid, particularly to the top in-state students. It does tend to be hard to get merit aid from state universities if you’re from out of state.</p>
<p>I am not aware of any state schools that are able to provide 100% of students’ documented financial need, so getting need-based aid from state schools can be problematic. It’s even harder if you are from out of state.</p>
<p>NYU is notorious for being stingy with need-based aid.</p>
<p>Brown guarantees to meet 100% of students’ documented financial aid. Just remember that the aid amount is decided by Brown, not by what the families think they need.</p>
<p>''I found myself having to say things like, ‘We don’t have a house in the Hamptons – and, by the way, I don’t know where that is,’ " said Nichols, 21, whose mother works as a truck driver and whose father is a self-employed handyman in Virginia. ''I mean I am glad to be part of this club, this very elite, very private club. I just wish someone had given me some clue about what it was"</p>
<p>Aurora Nichols has no problem mentioning she is part of a club and is glad."</p>
<p>This is a major issue with poor kids attending the Ivies. Granted, few poor kids attend the Ivies these days, but I certainly felt very uncomfortable and lonely at my college.</p>
<p>I came from a very poor family who lived in a small trailer. Thus, it was akward to deal with other kids who came from at least upper-middle (parents are doctors, lawyers, etc.) to upper-class families (“I’m independently wealthy and plan to travel after graduation.”). Right from the freshman year, the wealthy students were invited to exclusive social clubs, etc., while the poor kids were never allowed for the four years they attended there.</p>
<p>When I chose to attend a graduate school later on, one factor I seriously considered was the background of the student body; I didn’t want to be surrounded by kids whose parents were hundreds and thousands times richer than my own.</p>
<p>On the whole, I think the Ivies are best for students from very affluent backgrounds; very often the wealthy students with their connections are the ones who get the small number of top jobs, etc. </p>
<p>You can obtain solid education from decent state schools or private schools that offer special programs for more talented students. The Ivies are not really all they are cracked up to be.</p>
<p>I am curious, viewpoint, have you changed economic classes since going to college? If so, did your college experiences help you?</p>
<p>I am wondering whether the exposure in college to students of a range of different classes, including very wealthy, would help the upwardly mobile poor students fit in after they graduate and move up to a different economic class.</p>
<p>For instance, one of my friends was first generation college and low income and is now a judge. I think that her having gone to a private college that included some well off people helped her make that adjustment.</p>
<p>I think that there’s much more forgiveness in college if one doesn’t understand the more upper class customs than if one is, for instance, a law clerk or in a similar position and doesn’t know how to fit in.</p>
<p>When it comes to Ivies, I think that at most there isn’t much emphasis on things like eating clubs, which are exclusive and expensive. There may be more social mixing at Ivies than at public universities where Greek life is important and membership could cost thousands of dollars a year. When I heard how much students were paying to be in frats and sororities at the second tier in the city where I lived, I was shocked. I couldn’t imagine paying out that kind of $ for my kid to join a social organization.</p>
<p>I do think that at most if not all of the Ivies people are far more interested in how smart you are and how well you do in your ECs (many of which have nothing to do with wealth, but have a lot to do with hard work and talent) than how much $ you have. Students also would be familiar with many alum who may have been first generation college or dirt poor when they went to the university, but afterward became wealthy and/or renowned in their fields. I don’t ever remember anyone at college making fun of someone for coming from a poor background. In fact, I think that the low income and first gen college student got more respect because people knew that they must have been extremely bright to have managed to get to an Ivy from that kind of background.</p>