What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

Parents Forum
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<p>In reinserting myself into this thread (and agreeing with Garland), I’ll start by reiterating that I think the biggest advantage to attending one of these “elite” schools is the concentration of smart, highly motivated students, which creates an environment that is a formative experience in and of itself. Can you find a similarly stimulating niche for yourself at other, less selective schools? Absolutely. The only thing missing will be the ubiquity of that vibe, which, as SBmom has said, is palpable at the schools we’re talking about. It’s like the difference between honors courses and standard courses. Are there smart kids in the standard courses? Absolutely, and they will go on to do well wherever they go. Is there a concentration of smart kids in the standard courses–that critical mass of drive, intelligence, and interest that makes a good honors course a superior experience for those who “fit?” NO.</p>

<p>Quite a few pages back, dstark asked if I, as a BU alum, felt inferior to people who attended elite schools. Well, no, I never have, and participating in CC discussions has only confirmed that sense. But I did have a half dozen friends from my HS attending Harvard at the same time I was at BU, and spent a good deal of time over there visiting and attending parties, etc. I knew many interesting people at BU, many of whom became very successful, but for anyone to claim that there is not a significant difference in what one will encounter in a Harvard dorm/classroom and what one will encounter in typical BU experiences is simply uninformed. There were downsides at Harvard too–a lack of street smarts and some serious dorkishness. But the intellectual firepower, the drive, the curiosity, were hugely noticable, as they have been in recent years during various “elite” college visits involving my children.</p>

<p>Regarding the “connections” issue–I had an interesting experience over the weekend, which is why I popped back in here. It’s just an anecdote, I hope no one will read more into it than they should, or become ticked off. I attended a funeral, and ran into one of the aforementioned friends/classmates who went to Harvard. He went on to Yale Law after that, and a very successful career in the politics/media nexus, and since my son is looking at some of those schools now (those that offer a dual major that includes music performance), I was interested in his thoughts. We had an interesting chat, but the only time he became truly animated and enthusiastic was after he asked about my daughter–“she’s at Williams??? That’s an incredible school! I think it’s the best school in country. I’ve never seen career paths like the ones I see from Williams people–their network is unbelievable.” This from a Harvard/Yale guy who knows more about networking and connectedness than anyone else I know. I don’t mean it to be an ad for Williams–I’m sure similarly-pedigreed folks can say the same thing about a lot of others schools. It was just interesting to hear from an extremely savvy and wired-in HY (albeit totally east-coast) guy that HYP weren’t necessarily the be-all and end-all of the in crowd.</p>

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<p>Originaloog: I VERY briefly dated a guy who’d gone to Princeton. I realized I was going to have to break up with him when I started timing how long it took him to tell people he’d gone to Princeton. The record was less than 4 seconds: he was wearing orange and black socks and it wasn’t Halloween.</p>

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<p>dmd: Funny…I will have to my son that. I want grand kids, I don’t want future potential daughter-in-laws to dump him because of his socks. I don’t know if he even wears ANY socks.</p>

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<p>dstark-- I genuinely hope I didn’t offend you. Thanks for the :); that may have taken some self restraint and I appreciate that.</p>

<p>Again, I agree with Garland that there are different bundles of advantages attached to different paths. You choose your path and get the advantages of that path and you forgo advantages of the other possible paths. </p>

<p>It all goes back to fit and individual needs. </p>

<p>For child “A” the merit scholarship, research opps, & mentoring at big State U might be <em>hands down</em> a better ‘package of advantages’ than the higher concentration of achievers or connections/prestige of an elite. For child “B” the better choice might be the elite.</p>

<p>The evaluation would be made based on: How badly does the kid need the turbo peers for motivation? What is the intended field? Does he aim for grad school, or not? How important is the $ difference to the family?</p>

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<p>The leap you make, that I don’t, is “your whole life will be negatively affected.” I disagree. For a bright and motivated kid who does not attend an elite, their whole life will be <em>positively</em> affected by the specific advantages that THEIR college offered… so long as they grabbed them </p>

<p>For example, if they graduate with less debt, they’ll have more job freedom, & a quicker path to home ownership. If they had great research opps, they may be published already; a better GPA could be a boost to grad school. If they want to work in a certain region, or certain industry, they may have better connections. etc.</p>

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<p>dmd, LOL</p>

<p>simba, they only wear the socks until they run out of clean socks. I am convinced the topsiders/no socks look was invented by prep school boys who did not want to do laundry.</p>

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<p>Just an addendum I want to add in case my description wasn’t clear: the LAC I was attending was the merit school/lots of opportunities/ but very nonacademic students example. The Big State U was the place where the academic atmosphere was very high (granted, it’s a top 25 school, and the LaC definitely is not.) So, my major overall point is that the most important thing, for me and mine, was to be surrounded by the most challenging fellow students. Where that happens can vary by type of school, and it’s lack can also vary inside any given school type. My D transfered from another Big State U to a great LAC for the exact same reason.</p>

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<p>Isn’t it possible that these kids, please, I know not all of them and certaintly not the children of those contributing to the Parents Section, are in fact grade-grubbing, brownnosing, resume-padding, status-seeking anti-intellectuals who haven’t had an an original thought in their lives? Witness the pathetic missives from the children on CC desperate to go to HYP et al. for all the wrong reasons?</p>

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<p>Yeah, but they’re everywhere. And if I, or my kids, were mostly stuck with a classful of them, we wouldn’t be recommending the experience to anyone else.</p>

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<p>The thing is, tsdad, if we find these missives pathetic don’t you think the adcoms, innundated with these missives to the nth degree, have a similar reaction? Don’t you think most of those kids actually don’t get into HYPS? </p>

<p>I spend a lot of time over on the Princeton board. I have to say, I am mostly struck by how sweet they are. They are kids. Real kids. Bright, articulate, anxious, confident, funny, nerdy, jocky, thoughtful, irreverent, charismatic, dopey kids. I haven’t run into an anti-intellectual among them. They are mostly just so excited to have been accepted. So maybe it’s self-selected, maybe only the really nice smart kids who have been accepted post:) and all the grade-grubbing status-seeking anti-intellectuals are sitting in their houses reading US Weekly instead.</p>

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<p>BTW, this is going to engender flames out the wazoo, but here’s the dinner conversation I had last night. An old friend was visiting and brought her nephew. He goes to UMichigan. Here’s a paraphrase of what he said.</p>

<p>“The top 1,000 kids in the freshman class at Michigan could hold their own at Princeton no problem.” (Princeton only has ~1200 kids in the freshman class, Michigan has ~9000). “The difference at Princeton is that you don’t have all the other kids.”</p>

<p>My apologies. Just reporting a conversation. One which I provoked in no way and did not contributed to except to say Oh and Hmmm.</p>

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<p>So? I don’t know anyone who got to know 1,000 kids in college so there are plenty of bright kids to hang with and compete with in classes–expecially the tougher majors that attract the brighter kids. You know, other kids not in the top 1000 can be fun and interesting too. They might be good at Texas Hold-em and teach you a few things. They might be good actors or singers or just nice people who are good to be around.
Or they might be able to run through linebackers and provide one of the great athletic entertainments on the planet–big-time college football.</p>

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<p>SBmom, I wasn’t offended. I’ve been called worse. :)</p>

<p>"They have been told that going to an elite school is a life changing experience and now they are not going to get this. What a great message we are sending these kids. Sorry, you are going to miss out. You’re not going to get this experience and now your whole life is going to be negatively affected. What a slippery slope. </p>

<p>The leap you make, that I don’t, is “your whole life will be negatively affected.” I disagree. For a bright and motivated kid who does not attend an elite, their whole life will be <em>positively</em> affected by the specific advantages that THEIR college offered… so long as they grabbed them"</p>

<p>SBmom, I’m not making that leap. I agree with you.</p>

<p>Driver wrote, “That’s an incredible school! I think it’s the best school in country. I’ve never seen career paths like the ones I see from Williams people–their network is unbelievable.” This from a Harvard/Yale guy who knows more about networking and connectedness than anyone else I know."</p>

<p>I have nothing to add to this except this… :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :)</p>

<p>I agree with Susan that this is a conversation.</p>

<p>So, without freaking anybody out, I understand wanting to be in a class filled with highly intelligent, highly motivated people, but can’t you really learn in a class of other types of students? When I talk to somebody, I don’t ask what school did you go to and what is your IQ? I listen to what they have to say and many times I learn something. I learn from all different personalities, and people with all different intelligences. I took a class last year at a college and I learned from everybody in the class. I didn’t ask their IQs when they told of their experiences. (I was the oldest person in the class and that was freaky). </p>

<p>One of the people I know is a cab driver. He’s one of the most well read people around. I’m talking Plato, Socrates, Shakespeare, Rumi, etc. Elite college students and graduates don’t have anything over this man, but many wouldn’t give this guy the time of day. It’s their loss.</p>

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<p>dstark,</p>

<p>The experience of four years among the “higher-concentration” population at an elite does not act as an innoculation against appreciating the contributions/ideas/value of non-elite-degree people for the rest of one’s life!</p>

<p>I meet lots and lots of people in my daily life and believe me, many of my favorites do not have an impressive educational pedigree. </p>

<p>People who crave stimulating conversations and new ideas will run screaming from the Princeton showoff in dmd’s post, but will be very happy to talk to your cab driver.</p>

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<p>That’s four years…</p>

<p>It’s a good thing there are many different colleges in the US.</p>

<p>I’d hate to be that 1001th guy at Michigan. :)</p>

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<p>Um, yeah, that was a little disheartening.</p>

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There are snobs everywhere, but that sounds suspiciously like very deep-seated prejudice (on dstark’s part), to me. I would bet, that should your cab driver decide to attend college, he would prefer to be surrounded by students who were similarly self-motivated by their intellectual curiosity.</p>

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<p>No Garland, I love that comment. It was telling. :)</p>

<p>Driver, he surrounds himself with all types of people. He would even talk to you. :)</p>

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<p>Dstark, obviously I don’t feel that way…I believe Alum was passing along something she heard, spoken by a Umich student (snobs are everywhere). Just weird after all my “pro-UMich as a place for a high level of academic discourse” posts.</p>

<p>I still maintain my position; I just have to realize we’re not all operating under the same definitions of what’s an “elite” school.</p>

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<p>I thought Driver was a woman?</p>

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<p>The cab driver example is making me smile. Throughout my husband’s four years of graduate school (he has “Dr.” in front of his name), he drove a cab. </p>

<p>Dstark…the thing is, speaking from how my kids felt in high school…it was good that they went to a high school that had all sorts of kids from various socio-economic backgrounds and of various degrees of intelligence, motivation, aspirations, backgrounds, etc. I’m glad that they did. We live in a community with a mixture of educated folks and those with low paying jobs or who never went to college. One third of the graduates of our HS do not go to college. I mix with folks of all backgrounds…be it as I watch my kids’ sporting events, attend their shows, go about town (small town), etc. Nobody cares who had an education or where they went to college. People of all types mix here. HOWEVER, by the same token, for academic classes, my kids MUCH prefered the Honors tracked classes because the level of work was not challenging enough in the lower track classes and the level of behavior, discussion, or motivation of their fellow students differed. This came up in their non tracked classes such as health and gym or art. It wasn’t the same and they’d comment about it. Those kids are fine to mix with on their teams and in their plays but in the classroom, the atmosphere and level overall was not what they craved. How students approach work, and the level of the work, differed in our HS from the hardest tracked classes to the easiest or the untracked classes. Our middle school had no differentiation and it was problematic for my kids academically. </p>

<p>So, yes, mixing with all types of people is what I prefer. For academic study, my kids prefer the work to be challenging and the level of motivation of their peers to be in the same range. It doesn’t make them think any less of kids at less selective schools…they have plenty of friends heading to colleges like that…I’d say the majority of their friends, in fact. They are intelligent kids too. But I don’t think my kids would enjoy the level of work or sense of stimulation of the discussion and level of work of their peers in some of the schools their friends are heading to. It isn’t as good a fit just like the easiest classes at our HS were a bad fit for my kids as learners. </p>

<p>This is not a snobby notion. My kids mix and have friends who live in trailer parks, subsidized housing and are not college bound or go to very unselective colleges. But in college, they are very stimulated by those who operate in class at a high level. </p>

<p>My younger D, who is something called a Tisch Scholar, went on a required trip to Appalachia over spring break with her fellow freshmen Tisch Scholars, to work with those in an arts community there. My D barely knew her fellow Scholars before the trip. She commented while on the trip, “these kids are just like me” and I knew what she meant. She had been very different in high school…and while very popular and a leader and all that jazz, she was different as a learner. She is a “gifted” type learner (for lack of another label) and her level of drive, passion, intellect, leadership and initiative in the arts (all which went into selecting who would be a Scholar) is different than her peers at home. She had to have a lot of accomodations in high school. She not only entered K early, then had a lot of acceleration, independent studies and much more, and even begged to graduate a year early at 16. While she has numerous close friends at home whom she adores and now numerous ones at NYU/Tisch, she realized that those in Tisch Scholars had a kinship with what she was all about…she had found some kids at her level. She loves her friends from various backgrounds and of all types. But I knew exactly what she meant by this comment. It was stimulating to her.</p>