<p>“In all my years as a feature acquisitions editor, I have never found that such credentials translate to superior journalism or writing talent.”</p>
<p>My theory is that those Ivy grads aspring for careers in journalism are (Northmom excepted) often the least able among Ivy grads: the most talented and ambitious prefer more lucrative fields such as law, finance or even highbrow academia.</p>
<p>Ivy grads generally come from affluent families, or aspire to join the affluent. Journalistic career is an unlikely path to affluence for bright young people. Those [Ivy grads] joining the print media and the like, may not have viable recourses.</p>
<p>viewpoint --surely are you joking? roflmao. Clearly you have never tried your hand at professional magazine writing, nor have you ever tried to succeed in top media in New York City. If you had, you could not make this statement. Do you know how difficult it is to succeed here, and how truly excellent you must be to earn a living, to get to the top? Do you know how many hundreds and probably thousands of failures there are for every success? It is far easier to go to law school and be assured of a career than it is to try your hand at writing and really make it as in --earn a living at it. No, I am not talking about writing textbooks or computer manuals: I am talking about writing for national media.</p>
I understand and I think I believe diversity exists at elites. But I am thinking only a fair and very limited degree of diversity can exist there (racial diversity may exist, but real honest-to-goodness cultural diversity perhaps doesn’t). Were talking a bunch of kids, all hitting hard on the SAT, and who probably have spent so much time at intellectual pursuits they arent naturally given to wrasslin catfish. But schools like UMiss or the UArk are probably brimming over with such kids, black, white, and everything else. In both cases diversity is limited because of the kinds of students the schools are likely to attract. Yet, I am thinking there are redeemable and important things at UMiss or UArk that, like the stuff NSM claims is probably most available at the elites, are most available at schools like these.</p>
<p>Im just trying to use a really weird thing like catfishing to point out how value fits into this discussion. Would I trade Princeton for UMiss? There aint a snowballs chance Down Under that I would. But I could easily see how someone else might make the trade because at a certain time in their lives they might value certain things more than I value them. In fact they may deliberately avoid Princeton because they perceive the school as one that fails to respect what they value. And these are things that, like catfishing, I myself might later come to hold in much higher esteem than I ever thought possible. So I think a lot of this issue is probably a function of culture.</p>
<p>It amazes me --how narrow the thinking is. Do you honestly believe that a doctor has more intellectual capital than a creative artist or writer? Well: If that is what Ivy is really about it is about nothing, nothing special at all, because you don’t need to go to an Ivy to get to law or medical school. And in my personal experience (no offense to anyone) physicians and attorneys are hardly among the most creative, outside-the-box brilliant intellectuals I’ve ever met. (One could be, but not as a rule.) In encouraging my children to be creative, to be outside the box, these are not things I have held up to them: They are fine things, but to me, things of the past generation, my parent’s goals: Not necessitating brilliance or great levels creativity as far as I can see. Only someone without much background in the arts could think success there requires so little.</p>
<p>I have another theory: MY theory is that the skills required to be a truly wonderful writer and journalist are not the same skills that got kids to Ivy, although an Ivy kid CAN be a great writer, it’s other things that got them to the school. Beating a path to elite schools requires, in a sense, an inside-the-box understanding of how the system works, and a willingness to walk that path. It is not all about intelligence --it is certainly not necessarily about the kind of edgy brilliance that makes art, not necessarily --nor the solitary, iconoclastic mold that many writers fit.</p>
I should be clear that I dont consider myself an authority on this for anyone but me. So my kids are free to move and be as they wish. Ive just made my mind known about the South as I see it. Also, I am always reevaluating my opinions on everything, including those dealing with the South.</p>
<p>Lastly, I am not talking about the technical South. Im talking about the Deep South-- places like Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Northern Florida, maybe even South Carolina, southern Virginia, and pockets in North Carolina. I have good memories of my life in the Deep South. But those memories are almost all overshadowed by awful memories of my time there. Its been nearly thirty years since I have seen the region. It is hard for me to accept that in this short time it has changed so fundamentally that a person like me should have any business ever being down there. If I am wrong about this then thats fine because neither the South nor I lose anything we value by my choosing to live as I do.</p>
<p>Cmon man. Dont make fun of us because we enjoy compelling discussion. I cant speak for the rest of the folks but I just got up and am now heading for work. Not much else to do at the moment but think and post a few posts. Arent you just really curious about where folks are on stuff? Sure you are. So we deal with our circumstances and talk here as we see fit. Right?</p>
<p>the only thing I’m curious about is why we’re not all going catfishing. I imagine that the actual fishing is just an excuse to find yourself out there enjoying the air and a bit of conversation. Too bad these virtual fishing sessions don’t end with something frying in butter,…</p>
<p>“Beating a path to elite schools requires, in a sense, an inside-the-box understanding of how the system works, and a willingness to walk that path. It is not all about intelligence–it is certainly not necesarily about the kind of edgy brilliance that makes art, not necessarily–not the solitary, iconoclastic mold that many writers fit.”</p>
<p>IMO, there is A LOT of truth in that statement.</p>
<p>“Sure there is diversity at Princeton and Harvard and Yale and whatever. But how real is it? How deep is it?”</p>
<p>Deep enough that one of my Harvard boyfriends was a scholarship kid from Louisiana who bagged groceries at the Piggly-Wiggly on break. Deep enough that my freshman year roommate had a German mother and father from Bangladesh. Deep enough that another roommate was a California Republican.</p>
<p>I’d like to think it’s all about how we pass the day away in the merry old land of OZ because:</p>
<p>we get up at 12 to start to work at 1
take an hour for lunch and then at 2 we are done :)</p>
<p>But seriously, because I have none of the above, I think my education, not so much my Ivy league education but the life lessons in general has taught me so much.</p>
<p>I am of the mind set that if you need something done to ask a busy person. I have always been a busy person. Having waited until my D started kindergarten to go to grad school, I spent many years juggling going to school full time, working full time along with being a single parent. So because of that, if I can break it down: </p>
<p>My college life has taught me important time management, critcal thinking skills, how to read a book a day (my D learned that lesson so much sooner) and after doing the research how to write a 25 page paper in one afternoon if I absolutely needed to (because I have had to do it).</p>
<p>My work life has taught me the importance of prioritzing, multi-tasking project management and being able to effectively negotiate what you want or need.</p>
<p>Being a parent showed me that we take some things way too seriously and we need to take some time to laugh and play a little.take advantage of every teachable moment that comes your way. Being a parent (especially during adolescence) taught me not only to choose my battles, but everything is not my battle. Naps are really good:D</p>
<p>Being at work on September 11th at 2 world trade center has showned me how fragile, fast and fleeting this life really is and drove home the importance of living a balanced life an not sweating the small stuff, and when you really get down to it, a lot if it is small stuff.</p>
<p>All of these things brought me full circle in thinking that Robert Fulghum, had it right; that all you every really need to know you do learn in kindergarten.</p>
<p>*All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.</p>
<p>These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don’t hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don’t take things that aren’t yours.
Say you’re sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK. </p>
<p>Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.</p>
<p>Off the top of my head I can think of Bil Kristol (Weekly Standard U. Penn.) and Claudia Wallis (Time Princeton) in journalism. There are TONS of Ivy grads in publishing and journalism. All Ivy grads aren’t just looking for the big investment bank buck. Many of them go into academics which pays very little, or not for profit. I think some posters are off base here.</p>
<p>There are Ivy grads in journalism. However, the numbers a very small when compared to, for instance, the Ivy grads in medicine, law and nonjournalism types of business careers.</p>
<p>Of my Harvard class, for instance, I would estimate that fewer than a dozen went into journalism. These include some people whose names would be recognized by people here.There are hundreds of classmates, however, in the 3 fields that I previously mentioned. </p>
<p>Every 5 years, my class does a survey about what people’s careers are, and we also publish a book in which people provide updates. I have an informed view about what people are doing: lots of doctors, lawyers and business executives. Bill Kristol was in my class at Harvard.</p>
<p>“Lastly, I am not talking about the technical South. Im talking about the Deep South-- places like Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Northern Florida, maybe even South Carolina, southern Virginia, and pockets in North Carolina. I have good memories of my life in the Deep South. But those memories are almost all overshadowed by awful memories of my time there. Its been nearly thirty years since I have seen the region. It is hard for me to accept that in this short time it has changed so fundamentally that a person like me should have any business ever being down there. If I am wrong about this then thats fine because neither the South nor I lose anything we value by my choosing to live as I do.”</p>
<p>Wow! Thanks so much for reminding me why I DO live in the south. I grew up in the offensive state of Mississippi and now choose to live in the offensive state of Alabama. I am well educated as are those who I grew up with. I am the daughter of two college professors. I also work part time as a college instructor while holding down another job. While I am white, I attended a high school that was 70% black. Needless to say diversity of both culture and thought has always been a part of my life. I think it’s funny that sometimes people criticize without really knowing what they are talking about. You would be amazed at the true ignorance that we are judged by all of the time simply because of where we live. I had a friend who was asked (honestly) if she had running water in her house when she went to camp in another state outside of the south. My father went to a technology conference in San Diego years ago. When he stated he was from Mississippi, the man he was talking to said (in all honesty) “Oh, well then I guess this is the first time you’ve flown.”</p>
<p>northstarmom --I am sure you are right, but are the percentage of journalists higher for SUNY Albany or UConn. I submit that you might find, percentage-wise, they are not at all different or even lower. The SUNY graduate may not be going to Harvard Med School but you aren’t likely to find them at the NY Times either. Just a guess.</p>
<p>To wit: I am sure Harvard has more doctors but probably not more lawyers (though they undoubtedly would go to better law schools) and as for journalists in top national media, very few climb that ladder no matter where they come from, Yale or UConn or anywhere else.</p>
<p>One thing about journalism is that you are only as good as your work. Poor work plus a prestigious degree will get you a pass on the subway with two bucks. You must be able to produce the product --for whatever reason, I have not found Ivy Graduates better at producing beautiful articles of high excellence and lyrical voice than others. Writers come from a wide diversity of backgrounds. They require great intelligence and skill, but perhaps not the SAME skill that got some kids to Ivy.</p>
<p>Hey --I am the mom of an Ivy student, I still do not see the translation to high excellence over other very smart students in my particular career.</p>
<p>“Beating a path to elite schools requires, in a sense, an inside-the-box understanding of how the system works, and a willingness to walk that path. It is not all about intelligence --it is certainly not necessarily about the kind of edgy brilliance that makes art, not necessarily --nor the solitary, iconoclastic mold that many writers fit.”</p>
<p>I agree. Very well put.</p>
<p>Thoughtfulness, perception, and voice do not always correlate with high output and slavish work habits. Look at how many great writers take 10 years to produce one book.</p>
<p>But there certainly ARE edgy-brilliant kids who <em>can</em> concurrently work inside the box-- & you do find them at Ivies.</p>
<p>“Beating a path to elite schools requires, in a sense, an inside-the-box understanding of how the system works, and a willingness to walk that path. It is not all about intelligence --it is certainly not necessarily about the kind of edgy brilliance that makes art, not necessarily --nor the solitary, iconoclastic mold that many writers fit.”</p>
<p>Well put: the halls of Ivy-covered buildings chockful of overprivileged kids, are an unlikely scouting ground for another Hemingway, Faulkner or London.</p>
<p>“northstarmom --I am sure you are right, but are the percentage of journalists higher for SUNY Albany or UConn. I submit that you might find, percentage-wise, they are not at all different or even lower. The SUNY graduate may not be going to Harvard Med School but you aren’t likely to find them at the NY Times either. Just a guess.”</p>
<p>Higher, actually MUCH higher, at Ohio University, and likely the University of Missouri. And, no, they aren’t at the Times, but provided the backbone of the midwestern journalistic set for more than a half a century. However, with journalism increasingly concentrated at the coasts, I expect that connections (often through prestige schools) probably counts for more today than it did 30 years ago, even at a time that these schools are less economically (and in some instances, less racially) diverse.</p>
<p>Well Missouri is famous for its J program, so of course. As to difference today vs. even a decade ago, Mini you could be right. With the elites now open to more people of all economic backgrounds, it may be an aggregate of something more meaningful than just wealth, as in the past --the jury is still out there re the writing biz and only time will tell but I will continue to judge each writer ONLY on his or portfolio and will continue to disregard pedigree of school as virtually meaningless compared to that.</p>