<p>“With the elites now open to more people of all economic backgrounds”</p>
<p>– Where did you get that idea? Many of the “elite” schools, while more economically diverse than 60 years ago, are in fact LESS economically diverse than 25 years ago. I think you may be reading too many of their press releases.</p>
<p>well mini that is very interesting --do you have a link where I can read the details on this? I don’t doubt you at all, I would just be interested in seeing how so, etc. thanks. What you are saying makes sense as most of the urms I have met at son’s Ivy are kids of doctors etc and have more money than we do by significant amount. So while it is diverse I have not seen economic diversity personally --where does all the finaid go? Maybe to middle-class people like us? I remember far more economic diversity from my old days at the State U.</p>
<p>Read the Chosen by Jerome Karabel. He has reams of data. The best example is Princeton for URMs, where there is a smaller percentage of African-Americans than there was in 1970, and a MUCH smaller percentage of African-Americans receiving need-based aid. But I think you will find that generally the case. Last data showed Harvard with 6.8% of the student body on Pell Grants (far, far lower than their URM - or simply AA and Hispanic attendees), and far lower than it would have been 25 years ago. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618574581/sr=8-1/qid=1147798071/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1583702-0533563?_encoding=UTF8[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618574581/sr=8-1/qid=1147798071/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1583702-0533563?_encoding=UTF8</a></p>
<p>Make sure to read all the footnotes.</p>
<p>“So while it is diverse I have not seen economic diversity personally --where does all the finaid go?”</p>
<p>As a percentage of those receiving aid, to those with incomes between $90-$160k. You can buy four top students who might otherwise go to Vanderbilt for $10k each, rather than buying one Pell Grantee for $40k, so it makes very good sense - especially as you’ll get $30+k per year from each of the four. The Princeton “no-loan” policy was especially aimed at them, although it is certainly true that everyone benefitted.</p>
<p>“Last data showed Harvard with 6.8% of the student body on Pell Grants”</p>
<p>what do you think the right percentage should have been?</p>
<p>Princeton’s current freshman class is 9.3 % black, which was an Ivy high. For 2010, I believe Harvard matched that number.</p>
<p>Also, I don’t think the fact that there are fewer poor students at Ivies than state schools is really something you can blame the Ivies for - at least not necessarily. The sad truth in our society is that underpriveledged kids usually get lousy K-12 educations and don’t get as much parental support (either because their parents have to work multiple jobs or because their parents themselves aren’t educated enough to help them succeed or both). Most of the economically disadvantaged students I know are here because they were selected for special programs that gave them extra help and got them admitted to private schools at some point in their education (for example, New York’s Prep for Prep program). But those programs don’t even come close to reaching every student or serving every need. If the cards are all stacked against you, it is unlikely that you will be able to succeed on such a high level. That is why the students that do beat the odds are so exceptional.</p>
<p>I don’t blame them for ANYTHING. In fact, I’m not sure I’d run it any differently. I don’t think there are any “right” percentages. I do believe that a diverse student body is good for ALL students, starting with the wealthy ones.</p>
<p>But I am responding to the unsupported notion that “the elites (are)now open to more people of all economic backgrounds”, because it simply isn’t the case.</p>
<p>“Princeton’s current freshman class is 9.3 % black, which was an Ivy high.” </p>
<p>In 1970, it was 10.3%, and virtually all of them received need-based aid.</p>
<p>Harvard “what do you think the right percentage should have been?” No clue. I know it is almost three times higher at Amherst, without any perceived adverse impacts on educational quality (if anything, I imagine it probably improved it.)</p>
<p>Are the lists of schools and the percentage of pell grant students at each school still available? Mini, do you still have the lists?</p>
<p>When I go to JBHE and search for pell grants, the lists don’t come up.</p>
<p>I used to use the data from Educational Opportunities, out of Iowa, but I’ll go look.</p>
<p>"Princeton’s current freshman class is 9.3 % black, which was an Ivy high.</p>
<p>In 1970, it was 10.3%, and virtually all of them received need-based aid."</p>
<p>Let us also not forget that since 1970 ( a generation ago) lot more blacks have become wealthy.</p>
<p>A 1% difference translates to about 12-13 kids at Princeton. And let us also not forget that % of Hispanics at Princeton have been rising steadily.</p>
<p>True - and they have now made a habit of accepting the wealthy ones, rather than the poor ones. As I said, they are less economically diverse today than they were then. </p>
<p>(Hey, a 9% percent difference would only be about 100 or so, so why accept any? ;))</p>
<p>Mini - Look at facts. 55% of Pton’s students are on financial aid (that’s about high as it gets at elite schools). Moreover, Pton took the leadership role of eliminating loans as part of financial aid. Pton’s 9.6% freshmen class being African American is number one in the Ivy league. An unbiased person person would say Pton is the nation’s leader in diversity at the elite schools. Occasionally you should temper your witticisms with fact based statements. And please don’t go on your ‘Pell grant is the only measure of anything’ rant. Taking a kid whose father is a police office and mother a nurse who can’t get a Pell Grant and giving him or her a free ride is a meaningful act of economic diversity at a school with Pton’s sticker price. The progress they have made from the horror stories of The Chosen is laudable. Only very twisted reasoning would say Pton has not made substantial progess in economic diversity (and perhaps is the best in its segment in doing so).</p>
<p>mini: are you saying that only poor (PELL grant by your definition) should go to elite institutions? or rather elites should fill up their classes with only poor kids of color - US blacks or US browns?..(exclude brown with asian heritage)</p>
<p>The “chosens” author has selected a convenient starting date. </p>
<p>I have access to information that (for example) informs me that Princeton’s entering class in 1967 was less than 2% black. Either that number jumped dramatically in 4 years, or his 1970 number is not correct.</p>
<p>In either case, it would be more illuminating for him to have come clean about what the earlier numbers were.</p>
<p>Things changed fast in the late 60’s.</p>
<p>Mathmom:</p>
<p>
I think this is great, of course. But I still need to question the depth of it (perhaps it is deep enough, but I am just wondering aloud about it). And I hope you aren’t getting upset about this. I am really trying to explore it by using extreme examples to present my proposal. I think culture and value are possibly at work in all cases, albeit by varying degrees.</p>
<p>You may have had a Louisianan, Piggly-Wigglian boyfriend at Harvard, but if others wished exposure to the culture that actually made him what he is, I wonder if Harvard can ever have enough cultural depth to provide it. On the other hand, UMiss would very likely have this in spades. UMiss, however, may not have depth enough to provide the stuff NSM claims exists mostly at places like Harvard. So, I think the issue may stand more firmly on what we are valuing and not necessarily on whether one college is objectively superior to another across the board.</p>
<p>Teach2005:</p>
<p>
I understand why youre upset. I guess a lot of people identify closely with their states (or regions) so that they do not wish them disparaged. I dont mean to disparage you, though. And I realize there is also a lot of ugliness in the North too. But I just dont think David Duke can be as famous and successful in most Northern regions as he has been in the Deep South.</p>
<p>In your own state of Alabama there is a guy running, right now, for Attorney General whose platform is openly racist. The guy is a Holocaust denier, and while he has allies in New Jersey, those allies arent running openly and strongly for public office. According to the Associated Press, the Alabama attorney generals race is up for grabs. The survey showed 21 percent favored Tyson to 12 percent for Darby, but 68 percent of respondents were undecided.<a href=“http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-21/1147453177221460.xml&storylist=alabamanews[/url]”>http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-21/1147453177221460.xml&storylist=alabamanews</a></p>
<p>This strongly suggests to me that the Alabama of today is pretty much the same ugly Alabama I knew in my youth because there is just no way a guy can be openly hateful of Jews and God knows who else, and yet with no money pull down 12 percent of the vote, leaving a whopping 68% of Alabamians fingering their chins about whether to vote for him.</p>
<p>The thing is, by going to UMiss, you do learn and mix with lots of kids from a Mississippi background which would be particularly great for a kid who grew up in let’s say, Manhattan. But lots of the kids at UMiss are gonna be from Miss, just like if my kids stayed at a state school here, they’d meet lots of kids like the ones they went to HS with, country kids from Vermont. Nice kids, bright kids, but all who grew up here.</p>
<p>By going to selective schools out of state, and the fact the most highly selective schools make efforts to diversify the incoming student body…that is something they value…one might get a more varied group to mix with than if staying home at their in state school (nothing wrong with it at all but contrasting it). You seem to be saying that the kids who go to selective schools would really meet more different types by going to UMiss but I don’t agree. I think you are stereotyping kids who go to selective colleges as being all one “type”…I infer you mean rich, white, preppy, from urban areas. Those kinds do exist at elite colleges but there is great variation. Kids come from all over the world which enriches anyone’s education to mix with different cultures and with those who grew up in various parts of our nation. </p>
<p>I also think you don’t realize the different backgrounds one may run into at elite schools. My kid went to a rural public high school and her roomie (who was randomly assigned to her freshman year but will be her roomie for three years so far), went to an exclusive day school in a major city. </p>
<p>You speak of catfishing. While we don’t have catfish in VT, it so happens that my D who goes to an Ivy loves fishing. When she was little, she would push her dad to take her fishing even though her dad was not someone who fishes. She entered the Kids Fishing Derby every June here sponsored by the Fire Department and has won a few trophies for the trout she caught. I have a picture on our mantle of my D at 8 years old, after going fishing with her uncle who lives in Alaska, and catching a king salmon by herself and holding it up, almost as tall as she was at the time. Up the road from us are farms, cows, sheep, horses, and so forth. I think my kids bring their country upbringing to their schools and mix with kids from a great variety of backgrounds and cultures and one of the reasons they wanted to go to selective schools was because they were more diverse than their high school, their local community, and state colleges. Where we live, everyone is white. However, my kids’ have many schoolmates who live in subsidized housing, trailers, very small homes, and so forth. Many of their parents hold blue collar jobs. Now, they are exposed to even more diversity. Actually, it is neat that they have met some wealthy kids. That is also exposure of a different sort. They now know al types. Where they grew up, most were of one religion and my kids hardly knew anyone in this region of our religion and now they have met many of their religion at their colleges. By the way, speaking of fishing, my D at Brown has a good friend she made at college whose dad is a fisherman who also takes out tourists on his fishing boat. When my D visits her, it is a very neat experience to have. Frankly, the meeting of all the students at their colleges has been a big part of my kids’ education. </p>
<p>Recently, when my D went with her Scholars group on a trip to Appalachia, I know it was a contrast for many in the group from where they were raised. Not so for my D. She said it looked just like home and the kinds of people she met there were kinda like from up here. </p>
<p>Anyway, I don’t think one is stifled or less exposed by going to a selective school compared to going to a place like UMiss. I think they do get exposed to different types. I also know that at our HS, my kids were exposed to kids from a wide variety of socio economic backgrounds. Many of their classmates’ parents were not college educated. Some have never been out of our state. I’m glad that had that sort of “mix” in their public schooling. And now in college, they are in a different sort of “mix” and that too is enriching. It is clearly a more of a mix than if they had gone to UVM as many of their local peers have done (great school though) or if they were at UMiss.</p>
<p>To the question of whether or not we have jobs.</p>
<p>Here’s my story. Got out of college with no idea of what to do. Got a friend of my father’s (Harvard roommate) who lived in London and was an agent (for movie and stage actors) to introduce me to a London theatrical producer. The said producer introduced me to another producer, who has since become quite famous, but at the time had a miniscule office up top of a theater. I got a job making tea and answering the phone. Stayed six months.</p>
<p>Went back to New York when visa ran out. Trod the streets with zero connections looking for work in the theater. Finally found work as a fund-raising intern off-Broadway. Met people who became very famous actors. (I am thinking of auctioning my presence off on EBay). Got sick of that. Did a human potential workshop (not EST) of the type popular in those days. Guy who ran it was an ex-McKinsey consultant with his own small strategy firm. Hired me as a research assistant. </p>
<p>Stayed a couple of years. Decided to apply to journalism and business school. Applied to two places with journalism/bschool joint program. Went off to India by myself for three months and wrote a freelance article on Bollywood before anyone knew about it. Since has become famous. (See what I mean about EBay?)</p>
<p>Came back. Was not accepted to said journalism school, was accepted to business school. Got MBA. Got job in Pennsylvania to be near boyfriend. Was hired even though company only hired engineering undergrads because - I had worked in the theater and the interviewer was on the local theater board.</p>
<p>Worked for 11 months in Pennsylvania. Got out of there quickly, which required taking a job as a salesperson for same company. Luckily, job was in Silicon Valley, my home town. Sold for close to three years, during which time, got married, got pregnant. Quit work and did not go back for 4 years. Had another child.</p>
<p>Went back part-time with same company. Eventually branched out into own business doing strategy and marketing consulting. After about 6 years of that, went back to work fulltime at high tech company. Got job due to education and extreme resource shortage in Silicon Valley at that time. Have worked fulltime for the past 9 years. Was rapidly promoted to VP. Have never, however, had more than 25 people working for me. High tech, dot coms, startups.</p>
<p>Now am VP of Marketing in startup. Have time to go on cc because many working hours have to be in the evening when China wakes up. Company has >500 people in China now, after 3 years in existence.</p>
<p>Do I have a job? Yes. Did my Ivy education help? Yes. Once I got a consulting gig after an interview in which someone said, “I see you are smart from the Princeton credential. Come on in and we will talk.” Did my Ivy education do everything? Hardly. My kids taught me more that was valuable in my career than college did:).</p>
<p>There. I think it’s possible that for people like me, who want to take a less standard path, and in particular who want to opt out for a while to have kids, the Ivy thing can really help.</p>
<p>Soozievt:</p>
<p>
Not exactly. I am just trying very hard to find the redeeming characteristic of certain non-elites that might cause even the highest scoring student to prefer them over the elites.</p>
<p>I think a certain kind of diversity exists at the elites. But I am suspecting it is not very deep. Picture a place with a lot of different ornaments: Christmas, Halloween, Chanukah (bear with me), Thanksgiving, you name it. We have a lot of variety here, lots of diversity. But we have little context so that we can truly learn about these ornaments. The diversity here is good, but it cannot give us a deeper meaning of what it really means to be a Christmas ornament.</p>
<p>Now picture another place with a lot of different ornaments, only, they are pretty much Christmas ornaments, with a few Chanukah thingies thrown in here and there. But mostly they are Christmas ornaments. In fact, picture all of these ornaments on an evergreen tree, with blinking lights and Christmas music playing in the background. Maybe you got some mulled wine going, or spiced Something Yummy. Looking on the tree, you see exactly the same kind of Christmas ornament you saw in the other place. Now you get to see a deeper meaning of what being a Christmas ornament is.</p>
<p>The first place has wide, but shallow diversity. The second has narrow but deep diversity. In one regard diversity is sorely lacking. In another it is vast. We might all think that the first place is so much better because it just has so much more than the second. But does it really? One may truly value the nature of the second place above the first, depending upon ones values at a certain time.</p>
<p>I am suggesting that this thread could have been written by someone from UMiss who claims that, unlike at Harvard, UMiss is worth attending because it has (fill in the value present at UMiss but that is missing at Harvard). I personally would choose Harvard, but I think the reason this thread is so long is that a lot of folks are feeling deep down that maybe significant values are getting overlooked and even downright dismissed as somehow innately less worthy than others.</p>
<p>Your daughter really sounds like a fantastic young lady. My goodness!</p>
<br>
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<p>Hell no. At least, I can’t learn nearly as well.</p>
<p>I’m pretty good at reading books and memorizing all the material on my own. That’s not the issue. This kind of exchange is what I needed to take it to the next level:</p>
<p>Hanna: “Historical event X was essentially the result of political philosphy Y; events like X only began to occur after Y was published.”</p>
<p>Hanna’s classmate: “I don’t agree. Here are seventeen examples of X-type events that predate Y.”</p>
<p>Hanna: “Uhhhhh…”</p>
<p>Two important lessons there. First, I learned a bunch of stuff about X and Y that wasn’t in the book. Second, I learned that I have a whole lot left to learn when it comes to X and Y.</p>
<p>So for me, shared criticism is a huge part of education. I won’t discover the flaws and weaknesses in my ideas unless an informed person is poking holes in my theory. I need to learn how to fill the holes, and how to abandon the idea if I can’t defend it. If my classmates haven’t read the book, or if they don’t care whether I’m right or wrong, or if they don’t know how to find the holes in my theory, then I’m missing out on the lessons I need the most.</p>