<p>That same discussion with more likelihood of accuracy can be had with the person getting paid to teach the class. Did you fact check these claims or just accept them as truth?</p>
<p>Drosselmeier writes:</p>
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<p>It’s not so hard to find. Usually, its $$$$$.</p>
<p>I am also employed. </p>
<p>I have been self-employed since the late 80’s, and, like Alumother, I took a large chunk of time off to be home with my kids (about 8 years altogether). I have been about working about half-time lately.</p>
<p>I am my own boss, so I get to waste time on my computer whenever I want. :)</p>
<p>I also have to find something enjoyable to do while my H watches televised sports ;)</p>
<p>“You may have had a Louisianan, Piggly-Wigglian boyfriend at Harvard, but if others wished exposure to the culture that actually made him what he is, I wonder if Harvard can ever have enough cultural depth to provide it.”</p>
<p>Probably not. But I learned alot about the rest of American the year I spent photographing firestations all over the US. :-)</p>
<p>I learned another alot, by living in a blue collar neighborhood for several years.</p>
<p>Learning is life long.</p>
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<p>It’s not that interesting to have a dialogue with one person all semester. But more importantly, the person getting paid to teach the class, if he or she is any good at the job, recognizes it comes with a responsibility to everyone in the class. So the class time is not generally spent on the friction between my argument and competing arguments. It’s spent trying very hard to involve the other students and, if that fails, lecturing.</p>
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<p>If my classmate says, “What about Thackeray? He’s an exception to your statement,” and I don’t know enough about Thackeray’s work to respond, then I’ve still learned something crucial about my theory – that Thackeray has to fit into it somewhere, and I need to know more about him in order to defend it properly. This isn’t about checkable facts; those, of course, are what you learn from the book. It’s about understanding all the facets of the answerless questions you talk about in a good college class. There’s nowhere to go look up whether anorexia should be treated as an anxiety disorder like OCD, or whether Truman should have dropped the first A-bomb in an underpopulated area.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier:</p>
<p>I think I understand some of what you are driving at. In certain ways, elite schools are more diverse than state universities because they attract students from all over the country instead of all over the state. Yet, despite the large proportion of students on financial aid at top schools, there is a lack of diversity in the was the students approach their education and the acquisition of knowledge. It is not surprising. Whether poor or well-off, the students are all high achievers who have gone through more or less the same high school curricula. Meanwhile, at the state universities, there are the same high achievers, possibly in the Honors college as well as the students who need remedial algebra. Educationally speaking, there is a bigger spread among state university students than at top schools. As well, students at top universities are more likely to be from the same age cohort, whereas at state universities, you have students fresh out of high school as well as students who work full time or part-time, older returning students with not a lot of book knowledge but plenty of real-life experience. This can lead to more interesting classroom discussions than in top colleges where all the 18-years old have had more or less the same (lack of) experience. This is a very different kind of diversity than skin color or financial status.</p>
<p>Back to the notion of life long learning-- I agree… The world is diverse and if you are alive for 80 years we’re talking 76 years of diversity.</p>
<p>Several posters have postulated a greater, and more educationally enriching, diversity exists at the state schools… but how do all these perspectives come in to play in a classroom if only the smarty pants kids are participating?</p>
<p>I recall being SO BORED during most of my first 12 years of school. It was a rare class where I didn’t have a novel in my lap, entertaining myself, while the teacher taught the lesson at what seemed to me a snail’s pace… and I was at a very strong suburban HS with plenty of bright kids nearly all of whom went to 4-year colleges.</p>
<p>I think most very bright kids have had a lifetime of diversity-- and it’s not wrong to crave four years of being in an intellectually less-diverse group that will allow them to move at a free and unfettered pace.</p>
<p>When we were discussing with my senior whether either of the local public universities would be a viable alternative to the expensive elite or Ivy, we decided no. We considered many factors, including whether being in the honors program there would make a substantial difference. But what made his situation crystal clear in my mind was this: S attends an up-and-coming public HS in a moderately affluent area, which has many bright students. Still, in one of my son’s AP classes, after every test the teacher must deliberate whether or not to discard my son’s near perfect score as an anomaly when computing the grading curve. There were plenty of times when including his score in the calculation would have caused more than half the class to fail. In addition, several times the teacher asked my son for advice about how to get the other kids interested enouhg in the material to study more for tests. These students are not at the bottom of the HS barrel. In fact, they could very well be the same kids who would get placed in the honors program at state U. A disheartening thought.</p>
<p>How many of you have unpleasant high school memories of being known as the curve destroyer? I do, and it was a miserable spot socially. Even if teachers kept grades confidential (which occasionally they didn’t) and despite modesty on my part, the other kids nevertheless tended to sniff out the rat. Then I recalled that when I graduated from my good LAC, one of my professors told my parents that if he had taken into account my work when grading the other students, no one else would have ever gotten an “A”. At least he had spared me the guilt I had felt in HS for making average kids’ lives more difficult!</p>
<p>I considered the fact that my son is way smarter than I was or will ever be. Why should he spend four more years being a resented anomaly?</p>
<p>Marite, great post.</p>
<p>This was posted on another thread. This relates to Marite’s post.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513391[/url]”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513391</a></p>
<p>From the article:</p>
<p>SIMILAR BUT DIFFERENT </p>
<p>Laura E. Shortill, ALB 07, who like Nurse, enrolled in the program directly after high school, says she benefits from the different perspectives offered by her older classmates who approach the academic material in a different way from someone who is just out of high school. </p>
<p>However, Shortill, whose performance in the ALB program qualified her for a special student program that allows her to enroll in two FAS classes per semester during the day for the regular per-class Harvard tuition, notices a difference between the dynamics of her classes at the College and extension school. </p>
<p>There is a difference between deep and broad. The extension school has a very wide range of students…its less intense, when you get in a conversation its very chatty and informal, she says. In the College, theres less dillydallying. Its more, tell me your brilliant thought and Ill tell you mine, then I have another class or extracurricular to go to so off I go. </p>
<p>However, professors say the more laid back atmosphere of the extension school is not necessarily reflective of the academic rigor of the classes. </p>
<p>Robert H. Neugeboren, a lecturer on Social Studies who has taught Economics 1050: Strategy, Conflict, and Cooperation at the College and its extension school counterpart of the same name, Economics E-1040, says that there is very little difference in the structure of his two courses. I more or less teach the same material, says Neugeboren. I use the same problem sets and exams and the same curve overall as well. </p>
<p>Nor does he notice a significant difference in student performance in those classes. </p>
<p>The quality of the students overlap substantially, says Neugeboren. </p>
<p>There are more exceptional students in the college and [at the extension school] you see more students who are less well prepared to take the class but the general range is the same. He points out that the real world experience some extension students bring to the classroom can make teaching a more challenging experience at night. </p>
<p>Richard F. Thomas, chair of the department of classics and professor of Greek and Latin, who teaches at the extension school, says the range of students contributes to a rich teaching experience. </p>
<p>The world is full of people interesting and different in many ways, and that is an interesting combination to teach, he says.</p>
<p>“I considered the fact that my son is way smarter than I was or will ever be. Why should he spend four more years being a resented anomaly?”
My son is also very bright - took many AP courses and did well (he’s a senior now). If anything, he is reports that he is respected in the classroom - although a few will always be jealous. He’s very proud of his accomplishments. He will be attending a very selective honors college at his flagship University (chose it over some very good privates even though we could find the $ for the privates). Although the majority of classes he will take will be honors (3 out of 5 - at least in the first two years when reg classes are huge), he will ALSO take regular classes (horrors). We think having a few “smarter” kids in these classrooms can benefit the whole group - perhaps engage the teacher more and encourage everyone to participate. And I strongly believe that being smart is more than doing well on tests. Many kids who are not “booksmart” have great interpersonal skills, interesting life exeriences, and strong abilities in diverse areas. Not to say this doesn’t exist at top private colleges - but it’s really hard to avoid coming off as “elitist” when you go on about not mixing with the “slow kids”.
We’ll see how it goes, but it seems that the great majority of the kids who go to the State U (including the honors kids) LOVE it. Great school spirit, solid academics, big time sports and a classic college experience. I think he’ll do OK…</p>
<p>toneranger, of course your son will do well at his college! Sometimes it just seems like we are polishing the canonball…</p>
<p>sjmom - yes I know he will do well. My point is that I don’t believe he’ll be “dragged down” by the many students at his college who failed to acheive 1400+ SATs and 4.0 GPAs. Seems to be the thinking by quite a few who posted on this thread.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=190239[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=190239</a></p>
<p>Exactly. That’s why this thread is so wrong. Getting in isn’t the object, being the smartest or getting the highest grades isn’t the most important thing, being a decent human being who makes a worthwhile contribution to society, plays nicely with others, and works hard is really what it is about. You can go to any college, or not go to college at all, and be successful by that definition.</p>
<p>I like to run, but it would be ridiculous to try to train with Justin Gatlin. Our community adult basketball team is pretty good, but there’s no way the coach would even think of asking Michael Jordan to move here and join the local league. Yo Yo Ma is not going to benefit from practicing with an elementary school orchestra.</p>
<p>Are those elitist statements? Why is it that when we’re talking about intellectual ability, people become so defensive? There’s nothing wrong with the state U, just like there’s nothing wrong with the school orchestra. But Yo Yo Ma would also not be a snob for not wanting to perform with them on a regular basis. Different strokes for different folks is what we’re saying.</p>
<p>And I’m sure no one on here is insensitive or boorish enough to go around bragging to friends and neighbors about how smart our children are and how they’re too good for the state U. But this is an anonymous (luckily) forum in which we’re exploring an issue. We don’t mean to offend, and Lord knows we’ve affirmed a zillion times that:
“many kids who are not “booksmart” have great interpersonal skills, interesting life exeriences, and strong abilities in diverse areas.” Yup, and state universities can be great places with good students and professors, etc etc. etc.</p>
<p>The point is that many students of Ivy-caliber are just that drastically different in intellectual quality from even the average bright kid. That’s not elitist, that’s fact. Wanting to “train” with other of similar academic ability is just plain practical.</p>
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I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that very few of our kids really qualify for this comparison.</p>
<p>My kids are both intellectually and musically talented. That doesn’t mean they are in the same league as Yo Yo Ma or John von Neumann. Although my older son is at Dartmouth – which seems to be an ideal fit for him – I don’t think that this is the only college where he could have been successful. The truly unique and gifted individual will find a way, whether through a state U or Ivy.</p>
<p>We all come to this question from our own perspectives, obviously. Some may have graduated from highly selective institutions and can’t imagine how they would have reached their individual success at any other school. Some of us graduated from public U’s and see that college is just one step in a life long path. We can only talk about personal perspectives, but I will say that when I worked for IBM, I was one of the few people I knew who had attended a public U. My husband also is a public U graduate, who holds a very senior position in an R & D firm, managing people with PhD’s from elite colleges. At some point, it’s what one does with one’s abilities that counts. At the same time, we elected to let our son attend the Ivy of his choice to shorten some of the steps for him.</p>
<p>“At some point, it’s what one does with one’s abilities that counts. At the same time, we elected to let our son attend the Ivy of his choice to shorten some of the steps for him.”</p>
<p>How many other public U grads on here that are sending their children to the Ivy of their choice?</p>
<p>“The point is that many students of Ivy-caliber are just that drastically different in intellectual quality from even the average bright kid. That’s not elitist, that’s fact. Wanting to “train” with other of similar academic ability is just plain practical”.
So Harvard student is to State U student is like Michael Jordan is to Joe from the local basketball league. Pretty drastic huh? I’m glad our “true feelings” can come out on boards like this. Unlike a narrowly defined skill like Bball, I prefer to think that intellectual capabilites and skills are defined by more than test scores and GPAs. I think you can find those with fine intellectual qualities in most environments. And my view is that college is more than “training” in academics. It’s a life experience - academic and social. Bottom line: if you have the smarts,the money and the desire to go to an IVY - GO. If you can somehow avoid feeling superior to all those poor souls out there - that’s even better.</p>
<p>TheGFG,</p>
<p>My only point has been that we do see some benefit in the ‘halo’ effect of having an Ivy League degree. It doesn’t make anyone any smarter in reality, but it is a short cut to establishing intellectual capital.</p>
<p>toneranger said: “yes I know he will do well. My point is that I don’t believe he’ll be “dragged down” by the many students at his college who failed to acheive 1400+ SATs and 4.0 GPAs. Seems to be the thinking by quite a few who posted on this thread.”</p>
<p>Since my comments may have been misinterpereted this way I will respond.</p>
<p>The posters who recognize that there are <em>some</em> differences, and <em>some</em> specific benefits, to an elite education are NOT implying that all kids who choose a less elite school will be “dragged down.” </p>
<p>For example, the general pace of others in the room effects different students/people in different ways. Some people (me) hate the frenzied pace of a Harvard. Others would feel they’ve died and gone to heaven at Harvard. Some don’t mind being one of the few kids whose hand is always going up in a room where many kids don’t participate-- in fact, some kids may actually thrive on this leadership role. </p>
<p>Others, however, crave that high percentage of involved kids, whether for social or academic reasons they want to be lost in a crowd of raised hands. That’s elitist?! NO-- It is a personal preference and nothing more. It is really amazing to me that so many posters can’t just shrug and say, “whatever floats your boat.”</p>
<p>People want a learning environment that feels alive, interesting, inspiring. Again, the State U kid could determine that HIS environment was more “alive, interesting, and inspiring” for a set of <em>other</em> reasons already well identified… diversity, etc.</p>
<p>The point is that there ARE some differences in elite vs. non-elite environments, and that these differences should be considered when college choices are made. Kids should be where they will be happiest and learn best.</p>
<p>Regarding the menschadictorian, I agree completely that mensch-i-ness essential, way ahead of scores or grades.</p>
<p>Mensch, to me, = decency, honesty, and character.</p>
<p>Mensches who atttend State Us would be the first to recognize the reality that different schools have different benefits/different environments. They wouldn’t be threatened by this fact, nor need to run down people who make a different choice as snobs. They’d respect the validity of the other path and make the most of their own.</p>
<p>SBMom:</p>
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Ha! Of course youre right. But I was looking for something a little more, you know, dignified than just hard cash. Surely non-elites have more redeemable uniqueness to offer than lower prices.</p>